Montana Minister visits Kosovo says Media (and Clinton)lie

Just about the only multinational area left in the Balkans, is Serbia.

On the contrary, I used to think NATO was doing the right thing until Kosovo, I have learned a lot since, you could do with the same education.

So educate me, whats wrong with Kosovo?

Whatever you are on........ could you send me some.

LOL. Interesting fellow.

A brain-washed CNN-watching, Tony-Baloney-listening Brit.

He ain't no Brit. I think he's an Albanian living in Britain. (Maybe that's why his freep name is ABrit - Albanian Brit)

So is it just a random abuse generator you@ve got, or are there some thought processes going on in the space between between those ears of yours?

Long live the Scottish Parliament! Oh and Free Wales!! Dare I say Liberte Quebec!?

The law is law, morality is fungible. I was hungry therfore it was right of me to rob the bank. Try making that argument the next time you go before a criminal court.

So educate me, whats wrong with Kosovo?

Let the education begin. Make sure you read all the linked articles.

BIN LADEN GATE

Thanks for the post, but I already knew al Qaeda were bad guys and Clinton was a defective President.

What I want to know is why "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of human happiness" is ok for the US, but apparently not ok, according to many on this site, for the Kosovars.

One days report, copied from the federation of American Scientists site. 02 October 1998

TEXT: KOSOVO DIPLOMATIC OBSERVER MISSION DAILY REPORT, SEPT. 30


(Compiled from daily reports of U.S. element of KDOM) (600)



(The following KDOM Daily Report was compiled by EUR/SCE
(202-647-4850) from daily reports of the U.S. element of the Kosovo
Diplomatic Observer Mission and released by the Bureau of European and
Canadian Affairs, Office of South Central European Affairs, U.S.
Department of State, Washington, DC, September 30, 1998.) KDOM Daily
Report
September 30, 1998 This morning at about 10:30 a vehicle operated by
the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) hit a land mine 2
km. southeast of Likovac (near the site where a Canadian vehicle hit a
mine on September 14 and a Serbian police vehicle was destroyed,
killing five, on September 26). One doctor was killed and two others
injured. The fatality was an ethnic Albanian; the injured, another
Albanian and a New Zealander. A U.S. KDOM team was nearby at the time
of the explosion and able to provide assistance, including arranging
for Serbian authorities to provide a medevac helicopter to pick up the
injured and move them to the Pristina hospital. KDOM performed a
preliminary investigation of the alleged massacre of 14 Albanian men
in Golubovac. An alleged eyewitness told the team that, while Serbian
police attacked the village (see KDOM Daily 9/29) another group
tortured, mutilated, then shot the 14 victims whose bodies were buried
in the woods 2 km. east of the village. KDOM saw the site, pools of
blood in the dirt, tools allegedly used to stab the victims, and some
small-caliber shell casings. Residents of the area told KDOM of the
surrounding hills being littered with large numbers of bodies. KDOM
could not substantiate these reports. IDPs [internally displaced
persons] in the Suva Reka region told KDOM that the Serbian offensive
there began on September 26. First with artillery then infantry, the
Serbians forced an estimated 20,000 villagers from their homes and
into the mountains. A convoy of 240 IDP vehicles fleeing the offensive
was stopped and attacked by Serbian police on September 27, according
to IDPs. KDOM located the remains of the convoy on the Vranic Road and
noted that 150+ of the vehicles were burned or destroyed. The IDPs
traveling with the convoy were detained for 24 hours without food,
water, or facilities. IDPs also alleged that some women in this group
were sedated, beaten, and raped. Some of the men were reportedly
tortured, and one old woman and three children died during the
detainment. Local authorities told KDOM that several villages (Vic,
Kastanenevo, Biti, and Izhance) southwest of Urosevac were attacked by
VJ [called for translation] and police forces without warning on
September 28. 2,500 local residents reportedly fled to Urosevac. UNHCR
teams were in Likovac, Pec, Prizren, and Orahovac today, and a small
convoy delivered supplies to IDPs in the area east of Komorane. The
German NGO Kinderberg surveyed medical facilities in the Paragusa
valley where approximately 45,000 people reside (including 35,000
IDPs). The prevalent problems remain diarrhea, pediculosis, scabies,
and infectious diseases. Supplies of vacines in the valley are low.
KDOM visited the F.R.Y. ["Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"]
humanitarian relief center in Glogovac where the director said they
had been in operation for 3 months. KDOM noted that, as of 9:55 am
seven people had visited the center for supplies. All had ethnic
Albanian names. KDOM noted approximately 300 IDPs living in the open
near Golubovac. (End of document)


s

'ABrit' - anyone can get a British passport nowadays (apparently Italian is pretty easy as well). Being British and having a British passport are two very different things. And why would you come on to this forum advertising your Britishness? Most of us keep our heads low so that people don't start making vicious comments about dentistry or think that we're similar to those currently in the political limelight (perish the thought).

Why come straight to the Balkans threads and launch into history lessons? You must have been lurking for some time to know the tone, subjects and levels of specific discussion areas. You immediately launched into trying to disprove some of the posters who have been on here for years. Whether you agree with them or not, there are some very knowledgable people here.

Unfortunately, very few of us in Britain care about Kosovo or Serbia especially as it's hardly mentioned, and those who do still care tend to have been against it and still reeling from shock that we dropped bombs on Belgrade (which was like bombing Paris or any other European capital to some of us). That is unless (a) you're one of Tony's cronies/ in the military; (b) you work for The Guardian and are frustrated because no-one wants to read your stories anymore; or (c) you have some other personal involvement (eg. you're an Albanian, Slovenian, Croatian who has a personal agenda or hates Serbs - in which case you have some company here on FR who I believe that you've met already). Maybe you're a renamed former poster?

Most of the British people who know anything about it, were disgusted by the attack on Serbia which fought alongside our own nation in WWII. My own grandfather and uncles met Serbian troops during the war and praised them (well before March 1999) for their bravery, humility and 'streak of madness' when facing battle (rich coming from the English). My relatives were terribly ashamed by the British betrayal by Toby Law - but that's a whole other story.

The 'fellow travellers' that you describe in Britain who are old and wise enough to remember these facts, and to have been disgusted by Britain's participation in an unprovoked attack against a non-threatening nation on our own Continent, were not just Left Wingers. Lord Skiddalsky, Peter Tapsell, Alan Clark… there were plenty of others who spoke against the bombing and were horrified by it.

New Labour stemmed any democratic discussion and slammed a 'D Notice' on the media to prevent the 'facts' coming out. This despite the fact that such measures are only used in times of war, and we were repeatedly told by Chairman Blaair that this was 'not a war'.

The fact that Britain's main role under Blaaair was to advise on the lying which came out of Nato HQ (Alastair Campbell was Eurostarred to Brussels when Jamie 'O'Liar' Shea couldn't get dirty enough) is totally repulsive. Mark Laity, the BBC's own correspondent based at Nato HQ was given a job as the Nato spokesman because he did such a 'good job' on the Serbs, um, I mean on his 'unbiased reporting during the conflict'.

I am English and joined FR because I stumbled across a certain thread in 1999 which was linked to a news index. I was against the bombing of Serbia and horrified that Britain, under the wannabe- dictator Chairman Blaair, played such an active role. There are plenty of people here who know much about the subject. Clinton and Blair were in bed together (who knows??!) on the Third [Reich] Way concept which somehow led to the 'humanitarian war'.

At least I note that you don't disagree that it was illegal, but your notion that law should be ignored when something is 'morally right' is deeply disturbing. Such a concept of who is 'morally right' is the sort of drivel that Alastair Campbell dreams up and the lightweights in New Labour lap up. What next? Hanging a shoplifter because you feel that it is your 'moral' obligation? Don't be ridiculous.

Laws can be changed through the appropriate channels, not altered to suit the moment or the political agenda. Nato breached the UN Charter, Nato's own Charter, the Geneva Convention, Helsinki Agreement etc. Those agreements were drawn up so carefully and have provided the structure for international law and security very effectively since WWII.

It is certainly not 'morally right', to any sane person, to launch state terrorism against a nation to try and force it to give up part of its land, especially when your land army and 'Allies' are known narco-terrorists who have been fighting a separatist battle against the state in which they live (and still live, because Kosovo remains part of Serbia).

[By the way, for your reference and as JMS has told you: Yugoslavia was not part of the Communist bloc, and never signed the Warsaw Pact. It was part of a different non-aligned movement and it was this very independence which was so disliked by the 'West'.]

Now, here she is…

…that "crypto communist propaganda source" behind the Committee for Peace in the Balkans. None other than Alice Mahon, MP for Halifax in Yorkshire, member of the North Atlantic Assembly and Chair of the Committee for Security and Cooperation in South East Europe. Here is a link to her stance on the bombing of Serbia. She actually bothered to visit the country (unlike Keith Vaz that bloated corrupt Minister for Europe who has now been sacked) and went out of her way not to meet Milosevic during her visit.

Nobody in Britain would describe her in the way that you did. Like Tony Benn she is respected throughout parliament on Right and Left (and I've never met a British person yet who had a bad word to say against her). It's true that she hates war (who except total morons, teenagers and Blaaair would like war for the sake of it?) but she is well-respected for her knowledge and expertise - hence her position in, and involvement with, various internationally-respected groups.

Your question 'what's wrong with Kosovo?' gives you away. For someone with so much background info (even though much of it has been debunked by my fellow posters), you could not seriously ask that question unless you are a supporter of the KLA. I hope for your sake that you're not in Kosovo, because the 'peace' isn't going to last very long.

"As far as independence for Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Croatia, Kosovo, Slovenia, Bosnia, (even the USA), I am all for it, as long as it represents the freely expressed will of the people."

You know, 'ABrit', it takes more than the anglicising of words to make a convincing English person. I notice that the only country which you have missed off the above list is England!! As you will know, Scotland is more or less independent now, Ireland (Eire) is independent (again, strange that an English person of your knowledge would not draw a distinction between Eire and Northern Ireland), Wales has full autonomy (but there is a big difference between devolution and independence).

England does not have its own parliament. Anyone that I've met with the pro-independence attitude that you're displaying, does not forget the role of their 'own' nation. You don't cut off all your surrounding nations and then just 'float' on your own with no written constitution or parliament. Besides which, how would you have an 'English' passport without these things?

[By the way, it is against British interests to have full independence for Scotland… we would lose the North Sea oil which could not be permitted to happen.]

There is a big difference between Wales, 'Ireland', Scotland, England and Croatia etc. - the British nations are 'our' business, but the others are not. Why would 'we' have an interest in securing independent for the Albanians who live in Serbia? What the heck has it to do with 'us'?

Finally, I would be most interested to know, if you are prepared to share your personal insights:
- what you think of Blair;
- what you think of the KLA;
- whether you agree that a Greater Albania should be formed with Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and more of Serbia;
- why you would support Islamic fundamentalism and the Albanian mafia in the heart of your own continent;
- why you appear to be the last remaining 'Briton' who is pro Albanian independence and virulently anti-Serbian. Strange that! And for apparently no reason at all!

Yours in italics, mine not.

ABrit' - anyone can get a British passport nowadays (apparently Italian is pretty easy as well). Being British and having a British passport are two very different things. And why would you come on to this forum advertising your Britishness? Most of us keep our heads low so that people don't start making vicious comments about dentistry or think that we're similar to those currently in the political limelight (perish the thought).

Wrong, I am British, English to be specific, and I’m not afraid of saying so.

Why come straight to the Balkans threads and launch into history lessons? You must have been lurking for some time to know the tone, subjects and levels of specific discussion areas. You immediately launched into trying to disprove some of the posters who have been on here for years. Whether you agree with them or not, there are some very knowledgable people here.

Wrong, if you think the only way to know anything about anything is from this website, and by the way I didn’t come straight to this thread.

Serbian troops during the war and praised them (well before March 1999) for their bravery.

The way I heard it the United States and the United Kingdom had backed Tito during the closing years of World War Two in spite of his Communist affiliation and his never-disguised intention of turning Yugoslavia into a Communist country. Tito's Yugoslav opposition, Draza Mihailovic, a Serbian general in the pre-war royalist regime, had decided that it was more important to oppose Tito's Communist Partisans than to engage fully against the Germans. For the Allies, therefore, support for Tito was a pragmatic response to the need to tie down some 20 German divisions in the Balkans while the invasion of France was being prepared.

Yugoslavia was not part of the Communist bloc.

Wrong, Yugoslavia was expelled from the Cominform by Stalin in 1948. Became "non aligned", in the same way that Cuba and Vietnam were "non aligned".

The picture you draw of British attitudes to the Balkans could only possibly be held by someone on the loony left, or the very loony right.

Alice Mahon MP, like I said, a crypto communist on the far left of the labour party. "Like Tony Benn she is respected throughout parliament on Right and Left"..... I fell on the floor laughing when I read that.

Finally, I would be most interested to know, if you are prepared to share your personal insights:
- what you think of Blair; ......Too right wing for the Labour Party.
- what you think of the KLA;......They did what they had to do.
- whether you agree that a Greater Albania should be formed with Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and more of Serbia;....No, but if Albanians want a country for Albanians, then fine.

- why you would support Islamic fundamentalism and the Albanian mafia in the heart of your own continent;.....Did I ever say that? I don’t think so.

Kate, you are so rabid it's unbelievable.

Do you belong to the Campaign for Genocide in the Balkans, I bet you'd like to.

By the way your notion about law taking precedence over morality is laughable. Where would we have been without the sufferagettes, and their illegal protests? Well you would have been without a vote.

You Kate, are completely wrong in your assertions. In short, you are a twerp.

Is that English enough for you?

No, but if Albanians want a country for Albanians, then fine.

It's called Albania, dufuss.

You must have forgotten the Swiss Newspaper article posted here a few weeks ago in which KVM observers are quoted saying that their reports were falsified by higher ups.

as for the Yugo military equipment...most of it was made right in country.......the Sov's didn't supply much of anything. You might as well call India a Soviet stooge for buying MIG's instead of Lockheed.

Kate22......thks for explaining things to ABrit

So your history comes from....the Institute for Balkan Studies Belgrade. Now let me see, in communist countries, what is the first thing to get the makeover treatment.........of course.....the history lessons.

Imagine that, looking to Serbian sources for Serbian history. Your “commies under every rock” mindset is quite amusing – you wouldn’t be the reincarnation of Roy Cohn by any chance? BTW, Prof. Batakovic is hardly a commie. More a Serb nationalist – you know, the sort that Britannia spurned in favor of Tito. I note the utter absence of a substantive response from you on that latter point. Thanks for the concession.

Perhaps you missed Batakovic’ point that the new Yugoslavia had popular approval in 1918, and the opposition to it was stirred up by outsiders (Italy in that case) – some things never change, do they? And it was achieved with no Black and Tans murdering the population, no spurious "Free State", and no truncated six-county enclave. No wonder the Brits, or at least ABrit, find it so troubling.

Dare I say Liberte Quebec!?

Nothing wrong with that statement...... I have offered to help them pack.

Let the education begin. Make sure you read all the linked articles.

LOL, somehow I don't think ABrit really wants to get educated, some people find it too hard to admit they were wrong.

Excellent Kate, thank you.