Posted on 03/29/2002 11:36:56 AM PST by laureldrive
1. Consent
2. Emergency
3. " Hot pursuit"
A few others would be a "search" following a "lawful" arrest ( limited in scope ), " plain view "contraband" seizures, and the prevention of the immediate "destruction of evidence".
Yes, as long as the agent can articulate, beyond a reasonable doubt, his knowledge of the illegal being present in the home. INS policy is to obtain permission from the owner of the property, or obtain a search warrant if possible. Unfortunately, that is not always possible, and if the agent can articulate that he believes that alien will abscond before a search warrant is obtained, the agent can enter by any means necessary. This is always the last resort and is seldom if ever used.
That seems to me to be a Fourth Amendment violation.
Harboring an illegal alien is a felony, and if you do not allow the agent to take the illegal into custody, you are also obstructing justice.
On the point of Elian being an illegal immigrant-- I'll defer to others familiar with immigration law, but my understanding is that Elian's status was undetermined at the time of his seizure by the INS.
His status was not undetermined. What was undetermined was what to do with him. IMHO, if it had stayed at the INS level, Elian would still be here now. But Clinton and Reno got involved and who knows what deals they made with Castro. This whole thing turned into a political chess game, between the US and Cuba, and the INS was forced to play the bad guy. Just my opinion.
I infer from he 11th Circuit Court's ruling that he was entitled to due process before he could be declared an illegal immigrant.
The ruling of the court had to do with whether he could apply for asylum by himself or did he need a sponsor, and could that sponsor be someone other than an immediate relative (i.e. mom or dad).
In Elian's case, they were not there to arrest him. They were there to transfer him to the custody of his biological Cuban father until his immigration status could be settled in court.
As I stated before, INS does not arrest illegal aliens. INS will take the illegal into custody, charge them with administrative charge and remove them from the United States. As this was not the case for Elian, no one but Clinton, Reno and whatever high INS lackey they had in their palm, really knew what then end outcome would be.
IMHO, Clinton and Reno should be shot for handling the situation the way they did. Also, if this child was from China or some other shitty third world country, no one would have cared.
You need to learn to think for yourself, and to quit allowing your blind prejudices to taint your views.
Elian was ordered to remain in the US until his hearing by the 11th. Circuit Court of Appeals. How can a person ordered to remain in the US by a Federal Court be considered by you to be an illegal alien?
"Illegal aliens are not protected under the Constitution."
The people who owned the house were American citizens, what part of the Fourth Amendment do you not understand?
"Illegal aliens are detained not arrested and therefore they do not get Marandized."
But the INS broke into the home using an arrest warrant. Kicking a US citizen's door in is not the proscribed method for serving a warrant. At least not in MY America.
"Can't comment on that, I was not there."
Obviously, you're not well read on this incident, so I must take your responses to be little more than those of a Reno apologist, and a supporter of the "jack-booted thugs" method of law enforcement.
The Cuban government set up classrooms in the Wye plantation and other places, where Elian was indoctrinated in communist propaganda. It was widely reported by mainstream media.
In your version of Law Enforcement, the INS is not bound by the US Constitution, and they do not recognize US Circuit Court orders.
The basic difference between you and the Gestapo, is that they had cool uniforms.
Ya what ever.
Elian was ordered to remain in the US until his hearing by the 11th. Circuit Court of Appeals. How can a person ordered to remain in the US by a Federal Court be considered by you to be an illegal alien?
The court order to remain in the US, does not change the status of Elian. Federal courts order illegal aliens to remain in the US all the time, but they are still illegal aliens, untill the court decides their case.
The people who owned the house were American citizens, what part of the Fourth Amendment do you not understand?
I understand the Fourth Amendment completely. I have also stated that I did not agree with the actions of Clinton and Reno. If the family wishes to take the matter to court, they will lose. Under US law they were harboring an illegal alien.
But the INS broke into the home using an arrest warrant. Kicking a US citizen's door in is not the proscribed method for serving a warrant. At least not in MY America.
So under no circumstances can the police kick in a US citizens door to serve an arrest warrant? Their are allot of hardcore criminals that would like to have you in charge, to keep them safe from the police. As long as those murders, child molesters and rapists are US citizens, the police will have to wait until they leave there homes before serving that arrest warrant. Interesting views.
Obviously, you're not well read on this incident, so I must take your responses to be little more than those of a Reno apologist, and a supporter of the "jack-booted thugs" method of law enforcement.
I'm well read on the legal issues involved, hich you seem to be lacking. As for Clinton and Castro and what happened after the snatch, I lost interest. I could have cared less whether Elian stayed or returned to Cuba. You and the rest of the Anti-Castro fanatics were only interested in this case because Elian was from Cuba. In the kid was from Haiti, China or some shithole in Africa, you would not have blinked an eye. You accuses me of having blind prejudices, but it is you and the anti-Castro fanatics are the ones with blind prejudices. As long as it hurts Castro, it's good in your book.
In your version of Law Enforcement, the INS is not bound by the US Constitution, and they do not recognize US Circuit Court orders.
Wrong. In my version of Law Enforcement, criminals are treated the same, regardless of their country of origin.
The basic difference between you and the Gestapo, is that they had cool uniforms.
You and your Anti-Casto Fanatics are alot like the Gestapo. You have a blind hatred of Castro and the Gestapo had a blind hatred of Jews.
I'll say it again, so please listen: IMO Clinton and Reno should be shot for their actions in this. But either why, Elian was an illegal alien. Don't let those blind prejudices and hatred toward Casto cloud you view of this fact.
You are defending the raid, something so damned wrong, that even flamming liberals like Alan Dershowitz and Laurence Tribe publicly spoke out against it, let alone the overwhelming majority of conservative pundits in the media.
There is no excuse for the raid, as there was no need for the raid. There was an ongoing case working its way through the Federal Courts, and the INS had no need to do what they did.
BTW, while your compatriots were busy raping the constitution to abduct a six year-old child at gunpoint during Holy Week, a few miles north of Little Havana in Coral Springs (where I live)a bunch of aliens were planning the attack on the World Trade Center. Of course, Elian was easier to find, all the INS had to do was watch the news, or call the Gonzalez household in order to find the person that was described in the "arrest warrant" as "one Elian Gonzalez, believed to be hiding in" his uncle's house.
I guess that's the only way that the INS can actually find "illegal aliens"...when law abiding citizens try to do the right thing and take their case to Court following US laws.
While the raid was legal, and nobody has proved it was not, I have never defended it.
What I was defending was the fact that Elien was an illegal alien. That is a fact, that for some reason, no one wishes to acknowledge.
And yes Castro has a hell of a lot to do with it. Would you be this passionate about the issue, if the child was from China? No you would not. That too is a fact. Not one Cuban-American would have stood up and defended a small Chinese boy in the exact situation, and you know it.
What a comparison...and the Jews don't like Hitler(castro)--Nazis(RENO)--Gestapos(INS) and you do!
And you critisize the JEWS(Cuban-AMERICANS)!
1. Castro wanted Elian back at any cost.
2. ADM or some American country wanted Castro's approval for some business deal--IIRC a sugar deal.
3. Clinton wanted to suck up to the American company for some "unknown" reason, like political or financial gain.
4. Elian was caught in the middle, and lost his chance at life in the US, which his mother died to give him.
5. And personally, Easter will always be the time when I remember Elian, and why I hate the Clintons.
There are a lot of ordinary people, people who make no difference except in the aggregate on election day, who will NEVER forget Elian. Or Clinton. For different reasons, of course. It would have been a small task for a benevolent president to keep the child here, and the jerk refused.
GARY ALDRICH: Oh shoot, there are many liberal agents, and more than I ever knew. But they control their urges most of the time. Liberalism did not cause the FBI's problems. Weenie-ism is the cause of too many of the FBI's problems. Too many... Alan Aldas and not enough John Waynes.
an illegal human--American---you!
537 votes---stick it(go away)!
GARY ALDRICH: Marxist, no doubt in my mind. The harshest kind of Communism. They... worshipped---Fidel Castro for example, and he is no Socialist. They just use that word to soften.
You too commy lover!!
1. Castro wanted Elian back at any cost.
True.
2. ADM or some American country wanted Castro's approval for some business deal--IIRC a sugar deal.
Probable.
3. Clinton wanted to suck up to the American company for some "unknown" reason, like political or financial gain.
Again, Probable.
4. Elian was caught in the middle, and lost his chance at life in the US, which his mother died to give him.
Definitely.
5. And personally, Easter will always be the time when I remember Elian, and why I hate the Clintons.
That's fine with me.
There are a lot of ordinary people, people who make no difference except in the aggregate on election day, who will NEVER forget Elian. Or Clinton. For different reasons, of course. It would have been a small task for a benevolent president to keep the child here, and the jerk refused.
Jerk would be a very polite term. I agree that Clinton and Reno had a different agenda, and that the INS and Elian suffered for it. To this day, I believe that the INS would have let Elian stay in the US, if Clinton and Reno had not gotten involved.
Absolutely.
I am passionate about the concepts stated in the Declaration of Independence..."...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."
Maybe the documents that forged this nation mean very little to some, but not to me.
Maybe you haven't defended it, but you are trying to justify the actions of the agents, and you openly promote the raid.
"Too bad Clinton and Reno did not use these tactics on all the illegal aliens in the US at that time."
21 posted on 3/29/02 4:08 PM Eastern by Marine Inspector
The actions of the agents were justified. It is my understanding that they had obtained information that lead them to believe that weapons were on the property and would be used. Were they obtained this information is unknown to me, but if this is true, then they had every right to use these tactics to protect themselves. It is still my opinion that it should never had come to this, because Elian and his family were not high risk and it did not appear that Elian was a flight risk. As I was not in the raid, I do not know who supplied them the information about weapons in the house, but someone did.
and you openly promote the raid.
"Too bad Clinton and Reno did not use these tactics on all the illegal aliens in the US at that time."
OK, I can see were that does look like I promote the raid. Let me clarify. What I meant was that if Clinton and Reno, put as much interest or zeal into apprehending all illegal aliens, then the attacks on the WTC may not have happened, and we would not have over 10 million illegals in the country right now.
Let me refresh your memory about a statement you made about me on November 27, 2001: "I've had disagreements with Marine Inspector in the past, but his knowledge of immigration matters is beyond reproach.".
You're an intelligent man, I've read your post and listen to you on Free Republic Radio, and when it comes to matters of Cuba and Castro, I would say your knowledge in that subject is beyond reproach.
I live our Immigration policy everyday. I am immersed in our immigration policy 40+ hours a week. Elian was an illegal alien and until a Federal Court of Law repeals Clintons EO, then that's the law. It does not matter if you or I like it or agree with it, it's the law. The same goes for the raid. Until a Federal Court of Law awards damages to Elian's family, and rules that the INS and the Clinton Administration acted wrongly or in violation of the law, then the raid was legal, whether you or I like it.
IMO the INS was used, just like Elian, in a big chess game between Clinton and Castro. Who won? I don't know, but I can tell you who lost. Elian lost and so did the INS.
I'm glad you say you would feel this passionate about some poor Chinese child, but unfortunately, you would be in the minority.
It is my opinion that the US immigration policy should be uniform across the board. No one would be treated differently. There are many countries that are much worst places to live and grow up in than Cuba.
MI
So then, by this standard, the actions of the Federal Government pertaining to Waco are legal?
I bet you that we can find hundreds, if not thousands, of situations where crimes have been committed that a court never found the person guilty of ("I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinski"), that fact does not remove the criminality of the act.
The DoJ was guilty of playing politics to the extent of ignoring its own procedures in the case of Elian Gonzalez. You have access to the manuals, look up the INS procedures to be followed in the case of a minor seeking asylum against the wishes of its parents, I believe that they are divided into age categories. Also, do a Google search on the name "Walter Polovchak".
The INS can look the other way when the "wet foot, dry foot" rule is not enforced on a rafter intercepted at sea...provided of course that Major League Baseball really needs a future Hall of Fame pitcher.
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