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The evolving Darwin debate
WorldNetDaily ^ | March 24, 2002 | Julie Foster

Posted on 03/24/2002 7:03:09 PM PST by scripter

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To: Stultis
The difference between science and philosophy is that science gives proof of its assertions.

Alright then, please give me three examples of scientific theories that have been demonstrably proven. Should be easy, if scientific theories really are proven, as you insist. Why do you stall?

The theory that heavier-than-air powered flight is possible has been demonstrably proven. At least one mathematical proof that it was not possible had previously been offered (Simon Newcomb). Asked to comment, Orville Wright said something like 'our proof seems to fly better than the good doctor's...'

The theory that the Earth is round has been demonstrably proven. That one was no more than a theory 550 years ago.

The theory that the mechanism of a repeating rifle could be operated by the exhaust gas of the rifle itself has been demonstrably proven.

The theorems of mathematics are all rigidly proven....

61 posted on 03/25/2002 7:52:52 AM PST by medved
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To: gore3000
Intelligent design can be falsified. All you have to do is prove how different genes, how different organs, how different faculties coevolved at the same time.

How would this falsify intelligent design?
62 posted on 03/25/2002 9:19:13 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: exDemMom
Isn't an electron also one of those wave/particle dualities?

Yes.

63 posted on 03/25/2002 12:17:50 PM PST by gcruse
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To: Dimensio
bttt
64 posted on 03/25/2002 12:20:58 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: medved
Oh, please. You are giving me examples of singular propositions proven by simple instantiation. These are not scientific theories. A scientific theory is an interrelated set of principles and causal mechanisms used to explain the behavior or state of natural systems or entities.

The theorems of mathematics are all rigidly proven....

I fully agree that proof is possible in mathematics. Mathematics deals with formal systems. Natural science deals with nature. Demonstrative proof is possible in the former case because we know the rules that govern the system in advance. In the case of nature we do not know all the rules. (Indeed a purpose of science is to discover those rules.) This is one of the reasons that scientific propositions can never be proven.

65 posted on 03/25/2002 1:45:09 PM PST by Stultis
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To: Stultis
This is one of the reasons that scientific propositions can never be proven....

Something which can never be disproven is by definition pseudoscience and not science. The normal definition of a pseudoscience is that it be non-falsifiable, but it appears to me that demonstrating that something could never be proven should do just as well. The basic quality you're looking for is guaranteed perpetual inability to get any sort of a handle on something. Witchcraft is still as good an example as anything else; how could you prove or disprove the existence of witches? Does that not make witchcraft a science by your definition?

66 posted on 03/25/2002 1:55:53 PM PST by medved
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To: Goldhammer
So it hasn't yet been proven that the earth revolves around the sun?

That is a fact. Facts can be proven. A theory is more involved. Think Newton's theory of gravity. It sure seemed true, it tested true on earth. Then Einstein comes along with a better explanation. We can't know that someone else won't come up with an even better theory so we can't prove Einstein correct. We can only fail to disprove it.

69 posted on 03/25/2002 4:13:58 PM PST by mlo
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To: gore3000
to replace the already discredited theory of evolution.

already discredited? Saying something over and over doesn't make it so.

BTW, what about those whales, you remember from the other threads, the ones with the birth defect that gave them legs? Don't they cast a bit of doubt on the 'intelligence' of the 'designer'?

70 posted on 03/25/2002 4:14:48 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: mlo;gore3000
Has anyone ever shown that anything is actually 'irreducibly complex'? What could such a proof possibly look like?

Until we have a body of knowledge in this area, and a way of applying it to problems of natural history, the ID speculations have no place in the elementary science curriculum because they're without content.

71 posted on 03/25/2002 4:26:18 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Stultis;zulu
Think of the gas laws as opposed to thermodynamic theory.
72 posted on 03/25/2002 4:27:29 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: medved
Some useful references:

All those wasted man hours. What a shame.

If Jesus were here now He would say:
"Render unto science that which is science."
"Render unto mythology that which is mythology."

Teach science in science class.
Teach creationism, ID, etc in religion, mythology or philosophy clases.

75 posted on 03/25/2002 5:37:45 PM PST by Jeff Gordon
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To: medved
Some useful references:

WARNING

Some of the sites listed lead to popup hell. Not only will you learn some false science, but you will be asked exchange your automobile, choose your game at world's largest internet casinos, etc.

Is anyone surprised that such sites would be associated with internet trash?

76 posted on 03/25/2002 5:59:02 PM PST by Jeff Gordon
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To: Goldhammer
It helps in my work, because the protein I am most interested in is similar across species, with a similar function, yet the consequences of activating it are dramatically different. (Death in guinea pigs; a nasty skin rash in humans.) We ask, which are the differences (i.e. different amino acid sequences) that matter? How do they matter? Without the underpinning of evolution, the questions become meaningless. We cannot hope to predict how and why differences in function occur, without understanding how the protein diverged evolutionarily in the first place. Not only that, but by looking at the known divergence in other genes across species, we can make a hypothesis as to the nature of the protein in a species in which we have not yet isolated or sequenced it yet. And by using parts of the protein which have not diverged as much as expected, we can find the protein in new species.

I hope this helps you understand.

77 posted on 03/25/2002 6:04:04 PM PST by exDemMom
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To: gore3000
Mendellian genetics does not disprove evolution. Approximately one in ten thousand DNA bases will be mutated every time a cell undergoes division. Usually, there are repair enzymes to fix it; but if it is not fixed, and the mutation is in a germ cell, there is a small chance it will be a mutation in a gene. Many mutations have no effect. Most mutations are deleterious. If it is bad enough, it is lethal, and fertilization of that gamete cannot lead to a live birth. A very few mutations are favorable. If favorable, they give a survival advantage to the organism, which allows it more of a chance to reproduce, which helps to sustain the favorable mutation. It doesn't take very many generations for a favorable mutation to spread throughout a population. That is classic Darwinism.

As for your other point, that new functions cannot arise by chance: proteins only contain a handful of structures. It is by mixing and matching the structures that are there that new functions arise. Proteins that act as environmental sensors of oxygen, of "xenobiotics" (environmental compounds ingested or absorbed by the organism), or light sensors have a common structure and are present in organisms as varied as plants, insects, bacteria, and animals. Organisms are constantly shuffling genes and parts of genes; it is how we believe that novel functions arise. Now, as to how the proteins originally arranged themselves into functional structures, or how thousands of proteins work together to sustain life... these are questions which make many scientists wonder about intelligent design. If there was a creation event, it had to happen billions of years ago, and involved simple organisms such as viruses (which are not truly alive) or bacteria.

78 posted on 03/25/2002 6:17:50 PM PST by exDemMom
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To: gore3000
Your statement that any hypothesis is science regardless of proof is utterly ridiculous.

I never said such a thing. A hypothesis is testable, and either the experiment supports the hypothesis, in which case we want to test it again, or it disproves the hypothesis, in which case it is time to think of a new hypothesis.

Just because evolution cannot give any proof of its assertions either in the fossil record or in any other way, does not mean that real science does not. Science proves its theories with repeatable experiments, calculations, predictions and practical applications.

Evolution is a theory, meaning that it can be used to make testable hypotheses. So far, these hypotheses have stood up to repeated experimentation. The experimentation is not merely based on what one finds in the fossil record, and making testable predictions as to what may be found there, but is, these days, based on our knowledge of genetics. I happen to be a biochemist; the theory of evolution for me is a tool.

79 posted on 03/25/2002 6:25:31 PM PST by exDemMom
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To: Goldhammer
What's the big deal about "proving a negative? I can easily prove there is no thousand-dollar bill in my wallet.

I say there is a thousand-dollar bill in your wallet, but you cannot see it because it is caught in some transdimensional warp. No matter how hard you try to disprove a negative, there is always a "but" involved. BTW, when you find that $1000, could you lend it to me?

80 posted on 03/25/2002 6:30:33 PM PST by exDemMom
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