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Dismantling sought of Cuban embargo - on ''a collision course'' with the White House
Miami Herald ^ | March 22, 2002 | TIM JOHNSON tjohnson@krwashington.com

Posted on 03/22/2002 2:25:40 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife

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To: Buck Turgidson
I just want to be able to smoke good cuban cigars legally!

You are a great American, Buck!

We all owe you a debt of gratitude for upholding the principles on which this country stands.

21 posted on 03/22/2002 8:54:50 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Buck Turgidson
I just want to be able to smoke good cuban cigars legally!

You are a great American, Buck!

We all owe you a debt of gratitude for upholding the principles on which this country stands.

22 posted on 03/22/2002 8:54:51 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Cincinatus' Wife; JohnHuang2
''Most people in America think we should change our policy. It's a few people in Florida who do not,'' said Rep. Tim Roemer, an Indiana Democrat.

That's because most people in America don't know the true facts about Cuba and Castro. They are just repeating what the media has told them as opposed to Cuban-Americans in Florida.

23 posted on 03/22/2002 8:55:47 AM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: bmwcyle
Policies don't work when they are not enforced. This policy was never enforced. This is expression not of even Western values but rather of almost uniquely American pragmatism. Let's look at what works. Things have not changed in the last few months --- the current eldership has not worked, get a new one.

Regardless of whether or not this is wise, the rest of the world does not operate on this principle, and uses criteria other than "worked." The Cuban embargo is not a policy --- it is a statement of principle. It is a statement of what this country says it believes in. Nothing is ideal, and in the real world pragmatism does interfere with principles, but one should realize the cost of abandoning them.

In the past, we very often looked foolish when every new administration declared a new set of friends and foes. Again, the rest of the world has a bit more memory than the well-known six-week attention span of American public. Over the past half of a century, since America got involved into international affairs, the world has noticed this to be not just individual missteps but a pattern. This is why you constantly hear from abroad, "America has abandoned us; it cannot be trusted." Indeed, a constant change of course does not help to gain credibility.

Pres. Bush, too, is a good example of that: all of a sudden, Mexico is our best friend and ally. For American public it' palatable; we say, "It's his turn, he does what he thinks is right." The rest of the world, however, views this as one more inconsistency and lack of principles on our part. Given that we claim, or at least in the past did so, that we stand for democracy and freedom, this makes us look hypocritical.

We are about to take back our words and change a long-standing stand on Cuba and communism, just to reinforce the pattern, to further the objectives of our own leftists who think nothing wrong of the "socialism," and let Joes and Bucks to smoke Cuban cigars.

24 posted on 03/22/2002 9:11:52 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Victoria Delsoul
Media Research Center's in depth study of media bias, using the media's own words:
Back to the "Peaceable" Paradise: Media Soldiers for the Seizure of Elian--[Excerpt]
We would like to think that the Cold War is over. But for the people of communist Cuba and the people who’ve fled it, the Cold War remains. In all of the coverage and controversy over the arrival and seizure of six-year-old Elian Gonzalez, the media have taken the stark contrast between American liberty and Cuban tyranny and muddled it to the point that much of the American public thinks Cuba is no different than America, or worse, that Cuba is better than America. The Media Research Center has compiled a record showing how the national media built the public-relations rationale for Elian’s eventual return to Cuba, and then justified the government raid on a private residence to insure a political victory for the Clinton administration and the communist regime of Cuba. Is it any wonder that the public told network pollsters that they approved of the seizure of Elian after being barraged with liberal arguments? Analysts identified four patterns of distinct liberal media bias:

1. The news media have deliberately undermined the moral legitimacy of Elian’s Miami relatives specifically and anti-communist Cuban-Americans in general.
2. The news media have consistently praised the actions and "achievements" of Fidel Castro’s Cuba, claimed it was better for children than America, and played up the paradise Elian could dwell in among the Communist Party elite.
3. The news media have justified Attorney General Janet Reno’s actions and arguments, and lamented any resistance or delay in returning Elian to Cuba.
4. The news media have dismissed congressional criticism of the INS raid and calls for investigation as unpopular and unnecessary.

If the media were interested in a balanced presentation of the Elian controversy, they would have scrutinized the administration more than justified it; they would have explained the regimented reality of family life in Cuba; they would have balanced their questioning of the motivations of Elian’s Miami relatives by questioning the motives of the reunification camp; and they would have encouraged more discussion and oversight instead of trying to cut it off. [End Excerpt]

Complete Text of Special Report

================================================================================================================================================

Now for something really scary!! Boston Globe: Cuba's lessons on caring for children -- *****Let's hope it can and that as more Americans visit Cuba's shores, we can learn something from the Cubans - about how to raise our kids here, how to instill in them self-respect and cultural pride, and how to give all of them a chance to be happy, creative, and productive adults.*****

25 posted on 03/22/2002 9:16:09 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Great post #25, CW. Thanks for the links.

Bump.

26 posted on 03/22/2002 9:20:19 AM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: TopQuark
Pres. Bush, too, is a good example of that: all of a sudden, Mexico is our best friend and ally.

I think President Bush is working with Vicente Fox to give him more clout over the PRI in Mexico, which still holds majorities in the congress and mayoral offices. I do believe with our help coming now, Mexico can break free from 70 years of corrupt governance and start to climb the ladder of self-reliance. It will be good to have strong neighbors to the north and the south.

27 posted on 03/22/2002 9:22:00 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Victoria Delsoul
Thank you Victorial Delsoul.

Bump!

28 posted on 03/22/2002 9:22:50 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Good lord, how utterly ridiculous.....

The "embargo" does not work because it is only an American "embargo". It means nothing to Fidel, except propaganda, since every other country in the world does business with Cuba.

The embargo is stupid. During the Cold War, we traded with Russia; we currently trade with China. What makes Cuba special? Nothing.

And as for the Cuban cigars, I loathe the day the embargo is lifted because the market will be flooded with millions of fakes. In addition, to meet demand, the Cubans will pump out totally inferior product.

29 posted on 03/22/2002 9:27:35 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: ContemptofCourt
America must stand on principle, against Castro and his communist regime!
30 posted on 03/22/2002 9:31:02 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: ContemptofCourt
BTW, we send humanitarian aid, they can get medical supplies, etc. but we are refusing to ease the sanctions on third party financing on other products or travel. Castro has IOUs floating all over the world. We do not need to join in the stupidity. There are congresscritters here in the U.S. who want us to subsidize these sales. I hate to disappoint them in their quest for campaign dollars but they will have to disappoint their constituents and tell them the American taxpayers aren't going to buy their products and send them to a deadbeat commie.
31 posted on 03/22/2002 9:36:28 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
No question about anything you said. Your view is comprehensive and well-thoughtout leaving me nothing to add regarding the objectives and benefits of Bush's policy towards Mexico.

This is not how this should be done, however. This is not how our goals look to the rest of the world. Out life -- social, political, and now moral --- lacks continuity. We drop one idea and embrace another as a nation in a span of a few years. This even includes the language we speak.

All this may be fine with us, but this is not how the rest of the world thinks. We do not communicate our intentions and reasons --- worse, we do not bother thinking that this should be self-evident: new administration, new firends. As in "new month, new boyfriend" --- to some people the wisdom of that is self-evident, too.

That was my main point, which your own post illustrated, too. I point to some element of policy, and you immediately think of benefits (pragmatism). Fine. There is an additional question, then: why have we not pursued these benefits before? You yourself envoke a span of 70 years. In our own culture we simply don't care about the answer to that question: in this culture the past is water under the bridge. This is not so in the rest of the world, where the past matters, and time flies slower and slower as you go eastward from France until you reach China.

32 posted on 03/22/2002 9:44:16 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Ignore my previous post: the real question is, where is Cincinnatus? When is he going to come back from his farm?

Rome needs him more than ever.

33 posted on 03/22/2002 9:45:56 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Like China, huh. Can you spell H-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e . . . apparently our esteemed leaders can.
34 posted on 03/22/2002 9:49:49 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: JohnHuang2
Thanks for the heads up!
35 posted on 03/22/2002 9:51:10 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
And, another thing. We do not have an embargo because of principle; we have an embargo because of some very wealthy sugar growers in this country that want the embargo to not go away, lest their wealth will as well.
36 posted on 03/22/2002 9:51:48 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: TopQuark
Well, then it is evident we need to drag ourselves and our children away from the TV and open a book. Cincinatus is in his library, reading.
37 posted on 03/22/2002 10:09:49 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: ContemptofCourt
Give this some thought and then I think you'll understand.
38 posted on 03/22/2002 10:13:55 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Republican Primary Debate, Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Mich.

BUSH. ...I want to say something about Cuba in our hemisphere. There are some folks in our country who believe we ought to trade with Cuba. I don't. I think that would be wrong-headed. I think it's be a mistake. Capital that goes into Cuba will be used by the Fidel Castro government to prop itself up. There is a commission-type system in Cuba. Dollars invested will be dollars that will end up supporting this totalitarian regime. It's in our best interests for us to promote freedom in the island right off the coast of Florida. It's in our best interest to keep the pressure on Fidel Castro until he allows free elections, free press and free the prisoners in that island. And for those Americans that believe that trade with Cuba will cause Castro to become less totalitarian, in my judgment are naïve and wrong.

BAUER. Governor, you just made the case for withdrawing most favored nation status from China.

BUSH. I did not.

BAUER. Everything that you just said about Cuba applies to China.

BUSH. Let me answer that. Let me answer that.

RUSSERT. The difference between China and Cuba.

BUSH. May I answer that please?

RUSSERT. Please.

BUSH. There is a huge difference, a huge difference between trading with an entrepreneurial class like that which is growing in China and allowing a Fidel Castro government to skim capital moneys off the top of capital investment. There's a huge difference, a huge difference.

BAUER. Governor, one-third of the trade with China is with companies controlled by the People's Liberation Army.

BUSH. Gary.

BAUER. You know that and I know that. Tell the people rotting in the prisons of China that there's any difference between Castro's Cuba and Communist China. There is none.

BUSH. Let me say this. If we turn our back on the entrepreneurial class that is taking wing in China, we're making a huge mistake. If we turn our back on those that have gotten a whiff of freedom as a result of the marketplace taking hold, we're making a big mistake.

BAUER. Listen, I --

BUSH. We're making a big mistake. We're making a big mistake.

BAUER. The People's Liberation is O.K.?

BUSH. No it's not. I'm talking about the entrepreneurial class that is growing in the country of China.

BAUER. Sir, they are using that money for a massive arms buildup that our sons will have to deal with down the road.

BUSH. Only if you're the president.

BAUER. You can't be tough on China and not on --

BUSH. If I'm the president --

(BOTH TALKING AT ONCE)

RUSSERT. Mr. Bauer. Mr. Bauer, Mr. Bush. Let me move to another area...

"When the law is on your side, argue the law;
When the facts are on your side, argue the facts;
When neither are on your side, argue."

39 posted on 03/22/2002 10:23:43 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: ContemptofCourt
"When the law is on your side, argue the law; When the facts are on your side, argue the facts; When neither are on your side, argue."

How does that fit into my request that you read the arguments at the LINK?

40 posted on 03/22/2002 11:12:36 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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