Shoot-out ends in death of cop,suspect

Chicago Sun-Times ^ | BY FRANK MAIN, FRAN SPIELMAN AND ANDREW HERRMANN STAFF REPORTERS

[Hard Case]

In Virginia you can go to jail if you don't plant your trees in the right place.

I'm sorry that you live there. Remember that incident a few years back where the guy lost some property to a river swell so he later dumped some soil to recover it and was hauled into court? The result was dead police officers, dead DA, wounded judge and others. I can't remember all the details. They pulled him over under the guise of truck bed rust in order to serve a warrant. His AR-15 had other plans.

So, tree police you say? Sounds lucrative. What will stop this ride to insanity?

[Hard Case]

As such, private property is not the cornerstone of a free society, but merely one expression of it.

So private property is not necessary for a free society? We just don't need it? We will have to disagree here. If you have nothing you can call your own then there is no freedom. The country started out as an agrarian society. You made your living off your land. If some commisar of the state told you that you couldn't plant that crop or some other easment, they were killed. And rightly so. But alas, there really is no private property ownership in the USA anymore. Don't belive me? Don't pay your property taxes and find out. This would explain why you can be killed for you siding falling down. It would also expalin why alot of us are so enraged by the system you love so much. The system that started out pretty well but has become adulterated by the statist mindset. Perverted well beyond any comprehension our founding fathers could have ever imagined.

The real basis of a free society is an underlying set of agreed-upon moral principles which allow for the just and proper resolution of legitimate conflicts. It is that agreement, and the enforcement of that agreement, which is the cornerstone of a free society. Unfortunately for you, that moral framework has to include factors beyond purely property-based considerations.

Agreements are broken all the time, the only thing that is real is the tangible. For the subjective, a capitalist society deals in contractual law. In essence, the Constitution is a contract on the limitation of the federal government's involement in the everyday life of the citizen. Well that has been broken. Do you disagree? The system has become so twisted and corrupt over the decades that now there remains no recourse in the courts against the perpetrator. So now you recive a shovel of sh*t and are trained to give thanks and ask for more. A lightyear behind where early Americans were.

By limiting the basis of freedom to property, you exclude all non-property costs from the realm of legitimate interpersonal conflict.

Your authoritarian colors show brightly by this statement. Bill Clintonesque. Americans just have too much darn freedom right? Got to limit that freedom stuff, it is bad. If you want a gurantee, have everyone sign a contract willingly. Like minded people will gravitate towards each other. The whole freedom of association thing, that is if you feel that is permissable. Otherwise, no one ever guaranteed you a damn thing in this life, Jack.

I note, by the way, that the "free society" of old -- and it was in many ways much freer than today's -- recognized those non-property costs, and codified them in a variety of ways.

Okay, name some.

Now, getting down to hard cases -- do you flush every ounce of perspective and common sense down the toilet when you go to the bathroom?

No, I just flush the need to be a statist. Individualism is based on sacrifice of the many for freedom of the individual. Collectivism is based on sacrifice of the individual for the good of the many. Where do you stand? There is no middle ground.

[Hard Case]

Just throw him in with the PETA people who advocate violence as an end to their means?

Of course government agencies clearly fall ouside of this category?

[Copernicus]

Thought you might be interested in a case where a guy obeyed all the rules.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/518374/posts

[LaineyDee]

But in a normal urban/suburban setting he is adversely affecting the property values of all of his neighbors. He does NOT have a right to do that!

Maybe some of those neighbors who were concerned about their property values should have gotten together and helped him repair his house....instead of turning him in to the city? At the very least... someone (even the judge) could have contacted one of those charity organizations that do repairs and remodels on homes for the elderly and less fortunate. This whole thing was handled poorly...resulting in two people losing their lives unnecessarily, IMHO.

[Maelstrom]

Must be rough living in constant fear...or always on the lookout for a reason to get in a fight. How do you manage to sleep at night??





There's something happening here
And what it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I've got to beware

Time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look, what's goin' down


Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step outta line, the man come and take you away

[wideawake]

Case manifestly unclosed.

Disturbing the peace is engaging in unpeaceful behavior - i.e. behavior which causes the reasonable person to believe that they are threatened by violence to either their property or their person.

Such a threat is a violation of property rights, and is a form of menacing directed at multiple persons rather than just one. It pertains to a "community" insofar as a community is an aggregate of individual property owners whose properties are being severally menaced.

Being too poor to fix your porch is not a peace-disturbing threat.

[wideawake]

My heart goes out to the family of this dead officer - this whole thing should never have happened.

But I will say this: the job of a police officer is to defend lonely senior citizens from having their homes smashed into with a sledgehammer in the dead of night.

[ironman]

Actually Virginia is a real nice place to live. If you want to be near Washington it is the only place to be. Forget MD and DC proper. Within 30 miles you can out in the countryside. Read up about what can happen if your trees aren't in the right place here: Man Jailed for Not Planting Trees. I think there were personalites involved in this case that caused it to get out of hand. My community is very reasonable and it looks great.

[arm958]

Maybe some of those neighbors who were concerned about their property values should have gotten together and helped him repair his house

Did you read the line in the article that mentioned a neighbor (Mr. Cruz) who offered to buy the house for $100,000 and let the old man live in it rent free for the rest of his life? I think his neighbors were more than kind and patient. If the old man had taken Cruz up on the offer, then Cruz would have been responsible for getting the house up to city code - while the old man still lived in it rent free!

[FreedomPoster]

If you haven't looked at this thread, you should. Ping!

[joeyman]

And to think, if the cops never had shown up at his door, two more people would be alive today and not much else in this case would've changed. Why didn't they just pick him up when he was out and about during the day rather than storming his castle?

[Melinator]

Yeah, sure. How dare I disagree with our Benevolent Masters. You should come kill me. Or at least try. At the very least I should be put into a rape camp for siding with that old "terrorist".

P.S. You should change your screen name to "Red Amerikan".

[Travis McGee]

When is the government going to show 1% as much effort in deporting the MILLIONS of ILLEGAL aliens clogging our hospitals and jamming our schools?

Now I can demonstrate the harm that these freebie grabbing illegals are causing; I fail to see the harm this old geezer was causing on HIS PROPERTY.

[Travis McGee]

Thanks for the ping! I can't believe it took 171 replies to fetch me!

[JimRed]

...fools like you spouting the PROPERTY VALUES right...

I never claimed that "property values" are a RIGHT, only that others do not have the right to TAKE them from me. It's kind of like my right to swing my fist ending where your nose begins.

Conservo? Seems that maybe you've been camping out with the "no rules" folks over in the Libertarian camp (Our misguided but beloved bretheren).

[harpseal]

Lest we forget, Mr. Wolk was the one who started the killing, after having defied a variety of legally constituted authorities.

Legally constituted authorities implies conforming to the state and federal constitutions a case can be made that the city of Chicago and the government of the state of Illinois do not conform to either and as such are merely bullies with an organized buch of thugs enforcing their arbitray rules.

[harpseal]

In order to determine some of the items for which mr Wolk was cited they perforce needed access to his property.

That access without a search warrant is tresspass.

[JimRed]

There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a RIGHT to high property values.

I never claimed that there is a "right" to high property values, only that others do not have the "right" to take them from me.

[Squantos]

We have two good men vitcims of socialism and property devaluation and that fact is muddied up by the presstitutes and seditious revenue hungry bean counting goobermint bastards who prey upon us all in such manner................ Pastor Martin Niemöller's words are thought of here. Just a matter of time.

Stay Safe !