Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: maro
Do now you must argue that evolution occurs in introns. Two points: (1) since introns are nonfunctional, how can they be selected for? Lots of bit flips can happen in the noise parts of the DNA, but if they are noise, the odds that by chance something useful will turn up and become activated are rather long...

I don't argue that all evolution occurs in introns, only that introns form a ready source of new genes. Remember that I also said that mutations can occur in fully functional genes as well, but as with all mutations, the odds are that they will be harmful, rather than beneficial. But still, that's probably how much of evolution takes place - changes to functional genes, rather than introns, despite the costs. Most mutations to functional genes are harmful, but a few are beneficial. In re-reading my previous post, I am probably guilty of overstating how much occurs in introns, but it does happen.

Anyway, it's not until those introns are activated that natural selection operates on them. That's why they can accumulate changes over time with no effect at all - until they become activated, they are neither functional nor dysfunctional, and thus confer no benefits or penalties to the organism carrying them until such time. And when they are activated, and begin functioning in some manner, that's when they are subject to selection pressures - not before. And if they never get activated, then they are never selected for or against.

And remember, I never said introns were "noise" - they aren't random, they're leftovers, genetic flotsam, junk parts, remainders of your ancestors. Now, some of it has become noise over time due to accumulated mutations (so-called "genetic drift"), but much of it is readily identifiable.

(2) it is not true that software has no equivalent to introns. Programmers frequently insert English-language comments in non-functional parts of the code to help future programmers understand how the code is supposed to work--from the compiler's point of view, that is pure noise--what are the odds that bit flips in the notes section of a program will create functional code that, because a IGNORE WHAT FOLLOWS flag accidentally gets deleted, becomes functional.

Except that I seem to recall that preprocessors and compilers routinely strip comments out and replace then with whitespace before compiling. CPP does it - most do it unless explicitly told not to, IIRC ;)

Anyway, point taken. But, I went and looked it up - it's actually about 97% of the human genome that is non-functional, not 95%. Even if you call cpp with the "-C" option, 97% of your executable is not going to be comments, unless you compile "Hello, world" with your life story in the comments. And it probably won't run anyway, since cpp treats preserved comments as tokens - it'll give you some wacky behavior, anyway ;)

It's also a little more flexible in the genome - DNA encoding is not a purely binary language. Instead of "on" and "off" for a single bit, the functional part of a gene is a three-letter "word" (where the "letters" are nucleotides represented by A G, C, and T), and there are many redundant codes. TATA, CAAT, and GGGCGG are all codes for "promoters" - "START" markers for transcription. That's three different codes that mean exactly the same thing. The first two are four letters long - find me two four-byte sequences in your compiled code that only share the second byte in common (order matters here) AND mean functionally the same thing. And then find me a six-byte sequence that also means the same thing without sharing any bytes at all with the first two ;)

Stop to think about the consequences of arguing from introns: you have now abandoned evolutionary theory, because by definition natural selection cannot be the engine that shoves incremental intron changes along a path of somatic change.

Oh, I don't think so. Mutations can accumulate in introns with no selection pressure at all, true. But it's when (and if) those introns become active that the selection pressures come into play. And because of that, intron changes don't necessarily have to be "incremental". Changes to functional genes are incremental (or deadly), but because introns can drift arbitrarily with no penalty until they are turned on, the change can be very much wholesale when they are turned on.

502 posted on 03/21/2002 9:42:24 PM PST by general_re
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 501 | View Replies ]


To: general_re
"Mutations can accumulate in introns"??? The odds of "accumulating" a useful variation are too long without some mechanism (like natural selection) to cut down the odds. If twenty letters are needed for one feature or sub feature, the odds are roughly n raised to the 20th, where n is the random probability of one correct letter. It's worse than that--any one of the correct letters can be erased by a subsequent random bit flip. Arguing from introns gets you nowhere at all, whether introns are 3% of the genome or 97%. The math just doesn't work. And as you acknowledged (you now tell me in a moment of weakness), arguing from extrons doesn't work, because incremental changes are very likely to be harmful, and because it is very difficult to see (even conceptually) how there could be a path of helpful or at least benign incremental changes leading to a somatic change of any significance. One of the greatest discoveries in the 20th c has been the discovery of DNA, and the full implications of that discovery are still being absorbed. I would predict that future historians of science will say that the existence of DNA showed that Darwin was largely wrong (though in an interesting and helpful way). Mountains and oceans are analog, and one can view them as photomorphing over millions of years. Life is digital, and applying the photomorph concept to life just doesn't work (except in a low-level sense, like feather colors or other simple variations). A few posts back, you gave a little rehash of the ancestry of the human species, but you didn't address the central point, which is why roughly 200,000 years ago homo sapiens sapiens came onto the scene with a brain much more powerful than hunter gatherers needed. Think about this--99% plus of that primitive crowd had brains capable of reading, but alphabets had not yet been invented.
503 posted on 03/22/2002 4:43:07 AM PST by maro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 502 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson