[Thud]

Not.

" While I think Jews do tend to be more humane and self-critical, I think the biggest thing holding them back from responding is the fact that the "world community" is always looking for an excuse to condemn them - and excuse the Arabs."

All politics is local. It is Israeli domestic politics, not international politics, which is holding them back. The Israelis have their own Taliban and madrassas, and had them first. Osama bin Laden and his kind used the Israeli nutballs and their yeshivas as role models. That's right. The role model of the private Islamic religious schools, called "maddrassas", which are the secret recruiting ground for Muslim terrorists such as Al Qaeda, were the earlier created Jewish Israeli schools called "yeshivas".

Datums: Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews were, and probably still are, exempt from conscription while studying religion. And boy do they study religion - until they're too old to be drafted. At taxpayer expense in Ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools called "yeshivas". And, for some strange reason, those teach weird fanatic ideas about the other side and anyone on their "own" side not like them, such as secular Israeli Jews. Who, according to the nutballs, aren't really Jews. Even if Hitler disagreed.

And the Ultra-Orthodox cluster in and around Jerusalem, where they are demographically dominant in that area's Jewish population. Conversely, other areas of Israel, such as the Tel Aviv - Haifa megalopolis, are overwhelmingly dominated by non-orthodox & secular Israeli Jews.

And the non-orthodox/secular Israeli Jews have almost as low an opinion of the Ultra-Orthodox as the latter do of them. Israeli politics is tribal and fascinating.

And it has a major, major, effect on the Israeli govt.'s unwillingness to act effectively against Palestinian terrorism. As an example, the major driving factor behind Israel's insane settlements policy is the desire of the "settler" faction (which is different from the Ultra-Orthodox though there is some overlap) to steal the Arabs' land in the West Bank. Elimination of settlements and worse, effective partition of the Palestinians from Jewish areas, would prevent them from stealing the Arabs' land.

So the Palestinian terrorists are permitted access to Israeli civilians, to kill them. Otherwise the settler faction would be upset. The secular Israeli Jews know this and don't care that much about Palestinian terrorism as long as it hits the settlers and Ultra-Orthodox. Which upsets the latter - more proof that the seculars aren't really Jews, etc. And the Israeli political system gives everybody a veto power over the govt. doing anything.

Despite all this intra-mural activity amongst the Israeli Jews, the Palestinian Arabs are truly nutso - they've killed or driven out all their moderates (the Israeli settler/ultra-Orthodox factions had only a small role in that despite their best efforts) - and will never, ever, be satisfied.

So it's kill or be killed between Arabs and Jews in the Holy Land. The Israelis can pretty much eliminate the Palestinians if they want to. They just don't want to enough yet. But the Europeans have little or nothing to do with that. It's really Israeli domestic politics at work.

IMO the Israelis will open up bigtime eventually. By that I mean hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dead Palestinians, and the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. and it won't be one big thing - it will entail spasms of increasing deadliness & body count. Pretty grim all around, and probably starting within no more than five years.

[dennisw]

The Israelis have their own Taliban and madrassas, and had them first. Osama bin Laden and his kind used the Israeli nutballs and their yeshivas as role models. That's right. The role model of the private Islamic religious schools, called "maddrassas", which are the secret recruiting ground for Muslim terrorists such as Al Qaeda, were the earlier created Jewish Israeli schools called "yeshivas".

_________________________

That's a lie. Did you drop some LSD?

[massadvj]

Excellent post. I think most Americans think of Israelis as monolithic when in fact there is more political division there than here. They are certainly their own worst enemies. A recent Maariv poll had 42 percent of Israelis supporting the Saudi plan to give back everything post-1967 in exchange for Arab recognition.

Sharon is already on very shaky ground, and he is hamstrung by the necessity to hold a majority of these various factions together, which must be like herding cats. Meanwhile, the Palestinians seem to be in total support of unequivocal, unrestrained, unpredictable terrorism. I think they have come to the conclusion that they have nothing to lose, world opinion be damned, they'll resort to pure unequivocal evil and test the Israeli stomach for genocide and ethnic cleansing.

I am not as certain as you that Israeli victory is a foregone conclusion, however. Israeli self-destruction is definitely in the cards, as is WWIII, which scares the hell out of me.

[SKempis]

If I am reading your post right, I think we agree. There is no doubt that there are plenty of internal disputes that keep Israel from exercising an effective policy. But I still think a big part of the problem is as I said. I could be wrong, but I think one reason for the leftist Israelis' being overly tolerant of pali terror is their unwillingness to be condemned by the UN and others.

As for the handling of settlements, I agree that they need to either stop building them, or give citizenship to the Palis that are there.

[Light Speed]

The one underlying factor that appeases all in Israel..is the healing and stabilization of their economy.
The Palestinians have really hurt Israels economy...the numbers are coming in..and people who have careers in answering for the economy are bringing heavy pressure to bear on Sharon concerning this.
This is legit..Bibi Netanyahu has better ties to business enterprise and economic growth..waiting in the wings..Sharon knows He must act soon..or see His reign ended.
There is nothing like money concerns to finally get a Jew focused.....Israel is beginning to find its focus..the Palestinians would go for white flags now if they had any brains...but they don't..they only have hatred.
Israeli's have a very realistic philosophy ..."We wish to exist..and we wish to enjoy life"...this thinking will be hopping into Apaches.. F-16's..Merkavas...and M-113's soon.
Conflict is resolved by the side with the greater will and resolve....Israel will win this conflict..they understand all too well whats at stake!

[Alouette]

The role model of the private Islamic religious schools, called "maddrassas", which are the secret recruiting ground for Muslim terrorists such as Al Qaeda, were the earlier created Jewish Israeli schools called "yeshivas".

Earth to Thud! You were asked to provide some names, dates and places of ultra-Orthodox yeshiva terrorist attacks against secular Jews and non-Jews. You make these weird statements and then you run and hide.