[xzins]

Both of you, ref 853.

I answered Ortho's "T" question last night as I said I would once I completed the basic posting. (We still disagree....there's a surprise.) You 2 should live up to your word and edit the remaining TULIP definitions. I'm sincere in my desire to have them be accurate. You can look at it as a continual process of editing until you finally work them into the shape you want. I'll do the same with the Arminian stuff.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I answered Ortho's "T" question last night as I said I would once I completed the basic posting. (We still disagree....there's a surprise.)

No you haven't.

We requested an OBJECTION to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity.

As we saw in my #769 (to which there have been *no* replies), your "objection", when rationalized with Proverbs 21:1, in fact requires Calvinism.

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Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful AND HE CAN ONLY ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ DUE TO GOD'S foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace. We object because calvinists leave out prevenient grace and the remaining vestiges of God's image. We've discussed this before. My saying this isn't a surprise to you is it?

Of course not.

And your re-statement of the doctrine of Total Depravity thus demands that you become a Calvinist, for one simple reason:

The Omniscient God knows how much soup He is putting in the kettle.

You have acknowledged that, before a Man will ever choose to Repent, the want to Repent must be Gracefully implanted in his heart.

And the Omniscient God knows whether the Grace which He is implanting in a given man's heart is sufficient to regenerate that man's Wants to create in that man the Want to repent, or insufficient.

Proverbs 21: 1 -- The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Jeremiah 10: 23 -- I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

For a Man to Want to repent, his heart must be re-engineered by God such that he will Want to Repent.

• If the Father has Elected that man to the Son, the Spirit will employ sufficient Grace to create in that Man the Want to Repent -- at which point, the Man will freely choose to Repent, for that is what he Wants to do.
• If the Father has NOT Elected that man to the Son, the Spirit will NOT employ sufficient Grace to create in that Man the Want to Repent -- at which point, the Man will freely choose to NOT Repent, for that is what he Wants to do.

In either case, God will re-engineer the Wants of that Man's heart, precisely as God pleases.

The man's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; God turns it wherever He wishes.

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So you have not fulfilled your end of the bargain. If Proverbs 21:1 is true (and it is), then your "Objection" only reinforces Calvinism:

Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful AND HE CAN ONLY ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ DUE TO GOD'S foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace. The man's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; God turns it wherever He wishes.

But we didn't ask you to reinforce our views, but to offer an objection thereto. So far, you have not done so.

Have you any objections to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity?