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To: Jerry_M
A CALVINIST CONSTRUCT

These definitions are all either offered by calvinists on this thread or are condensations of definitions on this site recommended by JerryM: Calvinist Tulip Definition Site recommended by Jerry

T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.

U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins.

L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.

I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation.

P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are truly saved will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost.

The Five Basic Arminian Objections to Calvinism

These Arminian definitions are found in the Wycliffe Dictionary of Theology and are condensed in that work by a Calvinist, Roger Nicole(Gordon Divinity School). I will take some liberties with them for the sake of clarification. They are the views of Jacob Hermann (Armin) a former student of Calvin who came to doubt Calvin's theology.

1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.

2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.

3. - - Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.

4. - - According to the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace.

756 posted on 02/28/2002 8:15:53 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins;OrthodoxPresbyterian;CCWoody;Jerry_M;Ward Smythe
It is late..could we PLEASE do a real discussion of total depravity tomorrow..will all be around? (I know Jerry will be out)
757 posted on 02/28/2002 8:18:48 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
"A Calvinist Construct" Rejected

Among other things, I object to the wording of Points "L" and "I" (Point "L" is poorly worded. Point "I" is downright incorrectly worded).

I will offer to correct the wording of these two points; but I will respectfully refuse to offer this correction until after the Arminians will offer a one-sentence summation of their Objection to the First Point, Total Depravity.

I also advise my fellow Calvinists NOT to accept xzins' "Calvinist Construct" as constituting a definition of Calvinism until such time as I have corrected the mis-statements of Points "L" and "I". We will not acknowledge the "Construct" as reflecting our views.

As I said, I will correct the wording of "L" and "I" (which I know to be incorrectly stated) and mull over the wording of "U" and "P" after I have been supplied with a one-sentence objection to Point "T".

However, I will NOT offer these corrections UNTIL a one-sentence objection to Point "T" is offered; and until I have made my corrections, we will not acknowledge the "Construct" as being respresentative of our views AT ALL.

Excepting, of course, point T, which is correctly stated, and which we are prepared to debate.

762 posted on 02/28/2002 8:24:29 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: xzins, CCWoody, RnMomof7, Jerry_M, the_doc
Arminian Objections Answered

1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.

2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.

3. - - Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.

4. - - According to the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace.

5. - - It is not certain that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith.

ERGO, we see that all Arminian Objections are thereby reduced to a debate about Total Depravity: The Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.

Have the Arminians a one-sentence objection to the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

763 posted on 02/28/2002 8:26:36 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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