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To: Ward Smythe
The basic argument here goes back to the teaching of John Calvin who lived in the 1500s and Arminius as referenced above and their interepretations of scripture.

Incorrect! John Calvin is an Augustinian Presestinarian:

"But we say," say they, "that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work." But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, "We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated. - Augustine
And Augustine is a Biblical Predestinarian: ... He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...
679 posted on 02/28/2002 4:57:54 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Please see my post #673 addressed to Jerry. It would be helpful if you'd read all the posts before pouncing. I was simply trying to give stuartcr a very basic understanding of where the differences lie. For the debate on this thread the terms have largely been "Calvinist" vs. "Armininian."
680 posted on 02/28/2002 5:03:55 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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