[Jerry_M]

What you don't seem to recognize is the fact that we offered a one sentence, succinct, definition of "T". We thought that this would foster understanding discussion, and that is why we asked for either agreement, or a succinct disagreement.

All that we received was "I don't agree" PERIOD! No reasons as to why he disagrees, no discussion as to what he sees as the weakness of our position, no Biblical quoatations refuting our position. NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZERO.

Now, why bother with the remaining four points if this is all we are going to get? He can post whatever he thinks we believe, but we are not going forward until we deal with the basic issue of the condition of man. How can we have a discussion on the means of salvation if we can't agree from what man must be saved?

[Ward Smythe]

Now, why bother with the remaining four points if this is all we are going to get?

Let me just say that xzins clearly told you he would explain his position but he wanted to clarify yours first.

Then for whatever reason, you guys don't want to do that.

This bickering is pointless, and I don't have time for it.

I am not ashamed of what I believe. I am, however, ashamed of how I've acted and reacted on this thread. I am equally ashamed of others, but I'm not responsible for anyone but Ward. Our arguments here do nothing to further the cause of Christ.

These are the things I know:

The Bible is inspired, infallible
There is one God who became incarnate
Christ's death is substitutional
Our future is linked to Christ's Resurrection
One day Christ will Return

It may be appalling to all of you that in my heart of hearts, I think this debate is meaningless. I still have my beliefs about how it works, but what matters is that people come to Christ, not who made the choice.

I can see nothing in our actions here on this thread, or countless other threads that will cause people to come to Him.

I'd be a fool to say that I'll never enter the debate again. But if I do, I hope I remember what I've said here.