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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; fortheDeclaration; xzins; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; George W. Bush
Your #373: Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ

This statement leaves total inability out of the picture, except that for you, WANT, and free will, have a special meaning. In your lexicon, depraved WANTS imprison free will so that it isn't free, it can only choose evil. That brings total inability into the picture for you.

From the article of Predestination Thread III (and the first two threads as well):

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation... -- Westminter Confession of Faith

IN HIS NATURAL STATE, MAN POSSESSES FREE WILL, BUT IT AVAILS HIM NOTHING -- Since man was corrupted by the Fall, he sins voluntarily. There is no external force or Coercion: he is motivated by his own passions. But such is the depravity of his nature, he can only move in the direction of evil. -- The blessed Saint Augustine.

Without your special definitions the statement describes the current state of hardened sinners who fight against God and break His commandments. It does not say whether they might in the future move in a positive direction, as indeed they can, for they have God-given free will, properly defined. The road back will be long and hard, since they have so many evil deeds to repent of, but they can seek for God's help in so doing.

Total Depravity is false. TULIP is false. Calvinist predestination is false. Calvinist predestination and TULIP are, in my opinion, the most thorough denial of free will, properly defined, that is possible in a Biblical context.

The truth is: God has given man free will (properly understood).

(I am sure any Arminian would be happy to offer that truth as the "objection" to Total Depravity.)

God has created man in His image with the free will to choose obedience to His Gospel or to reject it, free will that avails him something even in his fallen state.

Any discussion of Calvinism eventually comes down to the nature of God (God is Love, God is merciful, God is just), and the nature of man (man has God-given free will to choose between good and evil). Calvinist predestination and TULIP are contrary to the love, mercy, and justice of God and these doctrines deny that He has given man free will, properly defined. This is one of the main points ftD is making in his well-written #289 and #371.

383 posted on 02/28/2002 1:48:16 AM PST by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
Any discussion of Calvinism eventually comes down to the nature of God (God is Love, God is merciful, God is just), and the nature of man (man has God-given free will to choose between good and evil). Calvinist predestination and TULIP are contrary to the love, mercy, and justice of God and these doctrines deny that He has given man free will, properly defined

Amen and Amen!

384 posted on 02/28/2002 1:56:13 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: White Mountain; OrthodoxPresbyterian; la$tminutepardon
Total Depravity is false.

In your present state, you are not qualified to discuss any issue of doctrine with us. You worship false gods. Until you repent of this, you will not be qualified to discuss doctrine with us.

399 posted on 02/28/2002 5:19:08 AM PST by CCWoody
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