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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M
And Jesus, the Son of God, certainly did not go to the Cross under the delusion that He was dying to give Stalin "a chance". Statistically speaking, Stalin had precisely a zero percent chance of Repenting from before the foundation of the world, because the Father had specifically predestined Stalin to Not Repent.

So God is responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union?
God is responsible for Hitler?
God is responsible for 9-11?
For Osama Bin Laden?

210 posted on 02/27/2002 10:32:52 AM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: Ward Smythe
So God is responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union? God is responsible for Hitler? God is responsible for 9-11? For Osama Bin Laden?

In case you had not noticed, God was responsible for granting men free will -- even though He knew that men would use it for all those evil things.

And He didn't have to Create at all. And, given that He did resolve to Create, He certainly did not have to create Lenin. You may refuse to admit God's Sovereignty over men's salvation, but I certainly think you ought admit His Sovereignty over their conception. Foreknowing that the birth of Lenin would bring about the murders of hundreds of millions, and ultimately result in Lenin's being thrown into Hell... and foreknowing that just the most microscopic of changes in the Divine Design would prevent Lenin's ever being born (one sperm, one egg, slightly different environmental factors on one day of history), or result in an entirely different Lenin... God nonetheless decided that this Lenin (the one He actually ordained to create) should be brought into the world, that Lenin should (freely) choose to make the evil choices which He would make (though God could have created him differently, or introduced different Graces into his life), and be thrown into Hell at the end of his days.

Lenin's choices were freely made, by Lenin. Likewise, God's choice to create Lenin at all, and ordain the creation of Lenin as He did -- with full foreknowledge of what choices Lenin would make if created one way, or another, if some circumstances were brought into his life, or different -- was a choice freely made by God.

So, ultimately, yes -- God is responsible for everything.


213 posted on 02/27/2002 10:46:28 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Ward Smythe; OrthodoxPresbyterian
"So God is responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union? God is responsible for Hitler? God is responsible for 9-11? For Osama Bin Laden?"

Did God create Stalin? Did God create Hitler? Did God create the 9-11 hijackers? Did God create Usama bin Laden?

Did God know how they would turn out? Could God have created them differently, or chosen to not create them at all?

Or, better stated, is Stalin bigger than God? Is Hitler bigger than God? The 9-11 hijackers? Usama bin Laden?

No, God is not responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union, but He did permit it. God is not responsible for 9-11, but He did permit it. He could have chosen to change the participants in such a way that they would not have performed these atrocities, yet He did not.

Do you know why He did not?

214 posted on 02/27/2002 10:46:44 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Ward Smythe; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Before you accuse us of saying different things: I agree with OPie that God is ultimately responsible for everything. I do not see him as being "responsible" as in the way I believe you meant it (culpability, guilt) in your original post.
216 posted on 02/27/2002 10:50:01 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Ward Smythe
So God is responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union? God is responsible for Hitler?
God is responsible for 9-11?
For Osama Bin Laden?

Could God have stopped them if He chose?

229 posted on 02/27/2002 11:13:52 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Ward Smythe
God is responsible for all things, good or bad. If you would allow yourself to think that perhaps Christ did not die on the cross for our sins, this concept would not be so hard to at least think about.
232 posted on 02/27/2002 11:15:53 AM PST by stuartcr
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