On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I answered Ortho's "T" question last night as I said I would once I completed the basic posting. (We still disagree....there's a surprise.)

No you haven't.

We requested an OBJECTION to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity.

As we saw in my #769 (to which there have been *no* replies), your "objection", when rationalized with Proverbs 21:1, in fact requires Calvinism.

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Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful AND HE CAN ONLY ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ DUE TO GOD'S foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace. We object because calvinists leave out prevenient grace and the remaining vestiges of God's image. We've discussed this before. My saying this isn't a surprise to you is it?

Of course not.

And your re-statement of the doctrine of Total Depravity thus demands that you become a Calvinist, for one simple reason:

The Omniscient God knows how much soup He is putting in the kettle.

You have acknowledged that, before a Man will ever choose to Repent, the want to Repent must be Gracefully implanted in his heart.

And the Omniscient God knows whether the Grace which He is implanting in a given man's heart is sufficient to regenerate that man's Wants to create in that man the Want to repent, or insufficient.

Proverbs 21: 1 -- The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Jeremiah 10: 23 -- I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

For a Man to Want to repent, his heart must be re-engineered by God such that he will Want to Repent.

• If the Father has Elected that man to the Son, the Spirit will employ sufficient Grace to create in that Man the Want to Repent -- at which point, the Man will freely choose to Repent, for that is what he Wants to do.
• If the Father has NOT Elected that man to the Son, the Spirit will NOT employ sufficient Grace to create in that Man the Want to Repent -- at which point, the Man will freely choose to NOT Repent, for that is what he Wants to do.

In either case, God will re-engineer the Wants of that Man's heart, precisely as God pleases.

The man's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; God turns it wherever He wishes.

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So you have not fulfilled your end of the bargain. If Proverbs 21:1 is true (and it is), then your "Objection" only reinforces Calvinism:

Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful AND HE CAN ONLY ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ DUE TO GOD'S foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace. The man's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; God turns it wherever He wishes.

But we didn't ask you to reinforce our views, but to offer an objection thereto. So far, you have not done so.

Have you any objections to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity?

[RnMomof7]

The psalmist says God uses "infants" to ordain appropriate praise.
Indeed, it is God alone who must so prepare praise for Himself from the mouths of babes, for Scripture declares that infants come from the womb speaking lies.

Scripture also says the rocks will cry out..God can make all of His creation ,even the lifeless give Him praise..

[CCWoody]

"Repent and be baptized!"

Well, how do I repent for that matter?

Is there any Arminian who can explain how one's heart leads to belief?

xzins has established that with the heart one believes. So, can any Arminian explain how this happens? Any?

[xzins]

Hi, Ortho. Glad to see you back. What time did you get to bed last night. I rolled about 3 eastern. Insomnia or just your pattern?

Come on, bud, you know that it isn't a lie if it's what I believe. You could call it wrong, misguided, silly, etc., but it isn't a lie.

Also, we went over this last night. Should we just copy/paste all we said then? Make it easier for my typing hand.

BTW, you owe me some editing on the definitions.

[RnMomof7]

See my 877...still silence !!

[xzins]

Hi, Woody,

your #883 - xzins has established that with the heart one believes

Wasn't me, it was Paul. (wasn't him it was the Great Inspirer!)

Romans 10:9&10 + Points 2 & 3 of above Arminian construct. There's your answer. Now come back and explain it to me.

[stuartcr]

I really don't think that there is any scripture that proves anything when referenced to what happens after death. There is scripture that reinforces beliefs, but it still proves nothing.

[xzins]

Mom, your 877. See my 886, and with Woody, come back and explain it to me. The two have my permission to joint post.

[xzins]

Stuart, do you know how the Apostle Peter died?

[Ward Smythe]

Forget it Ward. It is over!

Is that "Forget it Ward, I forgive you?"

Or, "Forget it Ward, I don't want to talk to you anymore?"

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked,
"Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. - Matthew 18:21-22

[stuartcr]

If infants are innocent of sin, when does the original sin kick in?

[xzins]

Scripture also says the rocks will cry out

I suppose, Mom, since we're to take a comprehensive look at all scripture that applies to a subject, that following on your cuteness above, you can now present a verse where: Jesus said, let the little ROCKS come unto me....

I, too, thought it was cute the way you used your logic to convince us that babies and rocks are the same thing. Too bad it's totally inane!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Come on, bud, you know that it isn't a lie if it's what I believe. You could call it wrong, misguided, silly, etc., but it isn't a lie.

Yes, it is a lie. It is a lie about the words of Jesus.

This is what you said: "Jesus declared infants innocent."
Now, cite the specific scripture where Jesus expressly states, "Infants are innocent of Sin".

If you can't, you are lying. You are putting words into Jesus' mouth, unless you can cite a scripture where Jesus expressly and specifically states, "infants are innocent".

And to place your words in Jesus' mouth, is Blasphemy against the Son.

• I don't tell lies about the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation. I don't claim that "Jesus declared that all who die in infancy go to heaven", because He did not ever say those words, anywhere in Scripture.
• Yet you will tell lies that "Jesus declared infants are innocent", despite the fact that He did not ever say those words, anywhere in Scripture.

You are willing to tell lies about the Son Himself for the sake of protecting your religious "beliefs". Hmmmmmmmm.....

BTW, you owe me some editing on the definitions.

Only when you offer an OBJECTION to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity.

As you have worded it, your statement of the matter only reinforces Calvinism:

Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful AND HE CAN ONLY ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ DUE TO GOD'S foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace. The man's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; God turns it wherever He wishes.

I'm sorry, but that's a very Calvinist statement. Did you have an objection to the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity, perchance? Any?

[xzins]

Original sin is known by Wesley-Arminians (which I am) as "sin nature." It is passed as an "inherited" characteristic from Adam. Individual's, however, are not guilty because of what Adam did, they BECOME guilty when they themselves act on their sin nature and engage in sin.

[xzins]

Now, cite the specific scripture where Jesus expressly states, "Infants are innocent of Sin".

I will as soon as you cite the specific scripture where Jesus expressly states, "All infants are part of the elect and go to heaven when they die."

And I asked you this last night and I'm still waiting. My question precedes yours. WHERE IS MY SCRIPTURE?

You "LIE" ABOUT THE WORDS OF JESUS according to your definition of lie. (In my definition, you simply have a faulty interpretation, but then again, Arminians believe in exercising grace not just talking about it.)

[RnMomof7]

I did not see anything to forgive to be honest..I just thought it was funny and a bit hypocritical in formate...but I did not take it personally.

[RnMomof7]

Both are lifeless and on their own unable to worship God..

[ShadowAce]

See my 877...still silence !!

I am actually at work, Mom--I've got things to do and I pop in here occasionally while my jobs (computer) are running.

How I repent is a different question. What I am asking is that if infants are sinners, but they have never repented, then how are they elect? How can they enter heaven as sinners?

[stuartcr]

The free-will thing I just threw out there, I'm not really sure we have free-will, although I am pretty convinced that most believe we do. Just another thing that cannot be substantiated. How else would we be where we are without things happening as God planned?
I can honestly say that I do not know why, a couple thousand years ago, Christ died, I do know that Christians are convinced they know.

[stuartcr]

No, I do not know how he died.