On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[RnMomof7]

The only reason I come out to participate is because the Calvinist construct presents the very grave danger of dissuading the unknowing from investigating Christ because they might believe the fatalistic nonsense the construct pedals, i.e. that nothing we do with Christ makes any difference. It is not only heretical but potentially fatal heresy as well.

Winston, I did not know God, I did not want to know God, I did not know what was in the bible, I did not want to know what was in the bible. I did not know the plan of Salvation or what repentance was.Then God gave me a new heart. suddenly I wanted to know Him more than anything . His word was like a love letter....I read and I read. I asked Him who was Jesus ? He showed me my sin, and I fell to my knees..Winston I was saved in my Bathroom .

Salvation is not an intellectual event. It is a moment of grace.

I believe we have been given an opportunity to present the gospel..no one knows how God will choose to act in anothers life.But I do not believe that you can interfere with the salvation or block the salvation of another.

If we rely on our own ability to present the gospel in an attractive appealing way ...we are bound to present a false gospel. Taking up your cross will never garner alot of converts:>)

[RnMomof7]

Mass is this Sunday.

I know codie:>)read the gospel of John my friend

[winstonchurchill]

You continue to insist that we hold to a theology that casts babies into hell even when we have demonstrated, time and again, that this is not so.

You say you have demonstrated that "this is not so" and then you say that your little small-g god decided before the foundation of the world that your little group would be saved and everyone else damned to Hell and that those that are so damned can't accept the offer of salvation in Christ.

But then realizing that there is no reason to believe that a god so arbitrary and brutal would have any difficulty being just as brutal to babies and little children -- since he sentenced them -- in your little view -- to Hell with the others who also had no choice.

Thankfully, the God of the Bible is a Great God. Much bigger -- and thankfully -- much more loving than yours. He is a Father who sent His Son to die for ALL men that as many as believed in Him would be saved. No arbitrariness, no secret little club with membership closed before the foundation of the world. Just the true offer of Life Everlasting and Life Abundant if we "believe in Jesus Christ" (Paul's words to the Phillipian jailer, not mine).

And that, my friend, is no 'Arminian lie.' That's Good News.

[Ward Smythe]

He is a Father who sent His Son to die for ALL men that as many as believed in Him would be saved. No arbitrariness, no secret little club with membership closed before the foundation of the world. Just the true offer of Life Everlasting and Life Abundant if we "believe in Jesus Christ"

Amen.

[Codie]

I'll read John,if you go to Mass.Shoot, if you go to Mass,I'll read the "whole" bible.

[Jerry_M]

Do you agree with wc that God will judge those who don't hear the Gospel by a different standard? (In fact, we have been very effective in showing that the non-Calvinists here don't even know what the Gospel is, let alone articulate it.)

[CCWoody]

Just the true offer of Life Everlasting and Life Abundant if we "believe in Jesus Christ" (Paul's words to the Phillipian jailer, not mine).

Gosh, I am all a tingle! Tell me: How does one believe in Jesus Christ!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You say you have demonstrated that "this is not so" and then you say that your little small-g god decided before the foundation of the world that your little group would be saved and everyone else damned to Hell and that those that are so damned can't accept the offer of salvation in Christ. But then realizing that there is no reason to believe that a god so arbitrary and brutal would have any difficulty being just as brutal to babies and little children -- since he sentenced them -- in your little view -- to Hell with the others who also had no choice. Thankfully, the God of the Bible is a Great God. Much bigger -- and thankfully -- much more loving than yours. He is a Father who sent His Son to die for ALL men that as many as believed in Him would be saved. No arbitrariness, no secret little club with membership closed before the foundation of the world. Just the true offer of Life Everlasting and Life Abundant if we "believe in Jesus Christ" (Paul's words to the Phillipian jailer, not mine). And that, my friend, is no 'Arminian lie.' That's Good News.

But unborn infants cannot "choose to believe" in Jesus. Thus the requisite condition for Arminian "salvation", they cannot fulfill.

So the Arminian's god just damned all who die in infancy.

Oops.

Oh, well, you gotta break a few eggs, I guess.....

[Jerry_M]

Well, I can guess that wc is going to tell you in response: "God judges those who don't hear the Gospel by a different standard". And to imagine that he got this silly idea out of his reading of Romans One.

[Ward Smythe]

In fact, we have been very effective in showing that the non-Calvinists here don't even know what the Gospel is, let alone articulate it.

This afternoon your compatriots were most effective in making a mockery of everyone who dared to disagree with them. If you people can't see that, this discussion is pointless.

As for what I believe, go back to post #437.

[winstonchurchill]

Salvation is not an intellectual event. It is a moment of grace.

It certainly the result of grace, but to say thtat is not to remove the decision of the will. I do believe it is an "event", i.e. there is a time in space/time history when we come to Christ and accept Him. Within the capacity of each of us, it is an act of the will and, so in some sense, an act of the "intellect".

Not "intellectual" in some "I know the secret handshake" kind of theology, but a decision nonetheless. God balances but never overwhelms our will.

As to 'interferring with' or 'blocking' salvation, we don't know the extent to which our acts of evil could adversely affect others, but Christ certainly implies the possibility: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves." This is Luke's account, the other two synoptics tell us that this applies to those "who believe in me". So our potential to "interfere" exists. In view of the penalty involved, I don't think we need to pinpoint the fine Calvinist line as to how far we can go before we do eternal harm. Christ wasn't kidding.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, I can guess that wc is going to tell you in response: "God judges those who don't hear the Gospel by a different standard". And to imagine that he got this silly idea out of his reading of Romans One.

He can't say this.
The Arminian professes to believe in a Universal Intent of Atonement.

If unborn infants are not intended objects of Atonement (because they "do not require" atonement), then the Atonement was never Universal in Intent, and the Arminian's doctrine of Universal Intent of Atonement is False.

QED.

[Ward Smythe]

Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

I addressed this for Ward in post #437.

[CCWoody]

Within the capacity of each of us, it is an act of the will and, so in some sense, an act of the "intellect".

What, now salvation is an act of the "will"?!? Of a man?

[CCWoody]

It has been like shooting fish in a barrel today, huh!

To any non-Calvinist: How does one believe in Christ?

[CCWoody]

I addressed this for Ward in post #437.

proxy drot anyone?

[winstonchurchill]

But unborn infants cannot "choose to believe" in Jesus. Thus the requisite condition for Arminian "salvation", they cannot fulfill. So the Arminian's god just damned all who die in infancy.

Nope, but nice try. Because the Bible teaches that God respects our will and neither damns nor rewards those who do not, through the grace of His Son, accept and believe in His Son, we believe He covers and protects the little ones until they make that decision of the will.

And, no, no man knows the hour or the day, but the problem with the Calvinist construct is that if God does not regard our choice of Christ (because He has -- according to that flawed construct -- already individually predestined the majority to Hell without any opportunity for salvation, then why would it trouble Him that a few little ones would go to Hell -- since their adult decision for Christ would be meaningless in any event?

How much farther from the Bible and the Love of Christ could that foolish construct be?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

It certainly the result of grace, but to say thtat is not to remove the decision of the will. I do believe it is an "event", i.e. there is a time in space/time history when we come to Christ and accept Him. Within the capacity of each of us, it is an act of the will and, so in some sense, an act of the "intellect". ~~ What, now salvation is an act of the "will"?!? Of a man?

Unfortunately, unborn children cannot perform the required act of Will to accept the Atonement.

Therefore, the Arminian god has to damn all those who die in Infancy.

Unless, of course, those who die in infancy are not properly objects of Atonement in the first place...
...in which case, the Arminian is lying when he claims to believe in a Universal Intent of Atonement. His god never intended the Atonement for those dying in Infancy, for (according to him) those dying in Infancy were never objects of Atonement at all.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Nope, but nice try. Because the Bible teaches that God respects our will and neither damns nor rewards those who do not, through the grace of His Son, accept and believe in His Son, we believe He covers and protects the little ones until they make that decision of the will.

And those who die before they make that Decision of Will?

Are they "covered and protected" by... God's Irresistible and Unilateral decision to save them, despite the lack of any "decision of will" on their parts to "accept" salvation?

So God unilaterally and irresistibly wills to regenerate -- to "born-again" -- some who have made no "decision of will" to accept being born again?

[CCWoody]

(In fact, we have been very effective in showing that the non-Calvinists here don't even know what the Gospel is, let alone articulate it.)

Bump!