On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[CCWoody]

The short answer is that people accept by exercising the "free choice" ability which was given to them by God.

Pretend I am lost: If I say in the last moments of my life: "I accept Jesus into my heart, am I saved?"

[FreedominJesusChrist]

That is why I never understood Calvinism and their doctrine of pre-destination. If God had already elected who was to be saved and who was to go to hell, what is the point of Jesus' Great Commission, to go and preach the Good News to all nations? I am sure that Calvinists who believe in the doctrine of pre-destination have a booming mission field.

[FreedominJesusChrist]

As a Christian first and a Missouri-Synod Lutheran second, I would say that the doctrine of pre-destination is false, it says in the Bible that Jesus came to save all men, not just the few elect, and that human beings have a free will. They can either choose to reject God's offer of salvation or they can accept it. It is by grace alone that we are saved. It is called Justification.

[ShadowAce]

If you truly mean it, yes you are. If you make the confession just on the off-chance that Christianity may have a point after all, then no--you are not.

Was the thief on the cross saved at the last minute? Of course he was--Jesus Himself said so.

[FreedominJesusChrist]

God has given us a free will and we are not robots. If you truly are sorry for your sins, ask for forgiveness, and believe that Jesus died to take away your sins, then you are truly saved.

John 3:16-17 = For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Notice that the Bible does not just say the few elect or those that have been specially chosen ahead of time?

[winstonchurchill]

If I say in the last moments of my life: "I accept Jesus into my heart, am I saved?"

Yes, oh, yes! As the much mis-used hymn has it, "Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty I'm free at last."

Oh, how do we know? We have the word of Jesus Himself on the subject. To the thief on the cross: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." [Luke 23:43]

[winstonchurchill]

As a Christian first and a Missouri-Synod Lutheran second, I would say that the doctrine of pre-destination is false, it says in the Bible that Jesus came to save all men, not just the few elect, and that human beings have a free will. They can either choose to reject God's offer of salvation or they can accept it. It is by grace alone that we are saved. It is called Justification.

Well said.

[CCWoody]

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

---

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

[CCWoody]

If you truly mean it, yes you are.

How does one truly mean it?

[CCWoody]

Yes, oh, yes!

So, do you suppose that the chaff, who thinks he belongs because he has simply said "I accept Jesus into my heart" has a real complaint to make with God?

[RnMomof7]

I made a weak Wesleyan joke there X .....

[ShadowAce]

Are you truly that unfamiliar with the basic concept of sacrifice? Do some research on it (especially the reasoning behind it) then come back.

[ShadowAce]

When you tell your wife you love her, do you truly mean it? Or are you just saying it to avoid the breakup of your marriage?

[CCWoody]

God has given us a free will and we are not robots. If you truly are sorry for your sins, ask for forgiveness, and believe that Jesus died to take away your sins, then you are truly saved.

I'm curious, FreedominJesusChrist; if there is freedom in Christ, then what is there in sin?

Notice that the Bible does not just say the few elect or those that have been specially chosen ahead of time?

Mine says that God has Predestined all His children from before the foundation of the world to glorification & adoption as sons. What kind of book do you use; mine is the Word of God?

[CCWoody]

Are you truly that unfamiliar with the basic concept of sacrifice?

I'll take that as your refusal or inability to respond to the post!

[CCWoody]

When you tell your wife you love her, do you truly mean it?

Of course; God has placed a longing for her in my heart. He gave her to me about 13 years ago and told her I was going to be her husband.

[FreedominJesusChrist]

Thanks. Been to many different kinds of Christian schools, but my favorite is the one I am in now, a Missouri-Synod Lutheran University, and the high school I went to, which was Penecostal.

[winstonchurchill]

So, do you suppose that the chaff, who thinks he belongs because he has simply said "I accept Jesus into my heart" has a real complaint to make with God?

But do you really think you have a "real complaint to make with God" because He chooses to save those souls who believe in His Son, whom you so imperiously call "chaff"?

My goodness, what Bible do you read? Christ died for that "chaff"! That is the Good News for all of us "chaff."

[Jean Chauvin]

"Jean, do you think those who FALSELY believe in Jesus are saved or those who TRULY believe in Jesus?"

Why, of course not. But are you suggesting that these people didn't think that they really had come to him? Here they prophesied in His name, they cast out demons in His name. They are a whosoever that came to him. Yet, Christ says he knew them not!

But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. (John 10:2-5)

Why do the sheep "know" his voice? Because they chose him? Or because he "foreknew" them?

Rom 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow..."

necessarily means that:

There are those For whom He did not foreknow...

If we define "foreknow" as "pre-knowing men's decisions", then the verse would necessarily imply that God did not pre-know other men's decisions. In other words:

"For those whose decisions he pre-knew"

necessarily means

there are those "For whose decisions he did not pre-know"

This is why your nifty little definition of "foreknow" denies God's omiscience.

Of course, I will have to point out the reformed definition fits perfectly:

"For those who he pre-knew he predestined..."

"For those who he did not pre-know, he did not predestinate"

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep (John 10:11-13)

Jean

[CCWoody]

My goodness, what Bible do you read? Christ died for that "chaff"! That is the Good News for all of us "chaff."

Are you suggesting that the chaff will be saved?