Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
I don't accuse "the brethren", but I do certainly accuse the Calvinist construct of being just that, a wholly-manmade 16th century overlay upon the Scriptures which bears no resemblance to the Scriptural Gospel of Christ. Period.
There is a lot of discussion on these boards about how the RCC and the Mormon church can mislead people with their add-ons to Scripture (and that is certainly true), but after watching the bitter, puffed-up, misleading nonsense put out on these boards over the last several months in defense of that 16th century construct and the plain damage done to the Name of Christ in the eyes of non-believers by that presentation, I am increasingly convinced that those defenders of the construct do much more damage to the cause of Christ than the papists or the mormons could ever hope to do.
But this doctrine is Biblical.
OK. So infants enter the world speaking lies, thus sinning. Yet you claim that these same infants enter heaven--but these same infants who die have never repented of their sins, so you are claiming that God is bringing unrepentant sinners into heaven--correct?
I don't believe that is biblical at all.
Well, the 'god' depicted by John Calvin is no more the God depicted in the Bible then the ones the Mormons hold to.
Wherefore as far as these natures themselves were concerned, they did what contrary to the will of God. but, as far as the Omnipotence of God is concerned, they acted according to His will, nor could they have acted contrary to the will of God, the will of God concerning them was done.(The Eternal Predestination of God, John Calvin, cited in Treasury of Evangelical Writings, Ed.Otis Fuller, p.185)According to Calvin God is directly responsible for every evil act ever committed! What does the Bible say about this blasphemy
They have built also the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind (Jer.19:5)
These definitions are all either offered by calvinists on this thread or are condensations of definitions on this site recommended by JerryM: Calvinist Tulip Definition Site recommended by Jerry
T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.
U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins.
L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.
I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation.
P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are truly saved will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost.
These Arminian definitions are found in the Wycliffe Dictionary of Theology and are condensed in that work by a Calvinist, Roger Nicole(Gordon Divinity School). I will take some liberties with them for the sake of clarification. They are the views of Jacob Hermann (Armin) a former student of Calvin who came to doubt Calvin's theology.
1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.
2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.
3. - - Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.
4. - - According to the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace.
5. - - It is not certain that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith.
I was thinking more along the lines of "The Martyrdom of Michael Servetus"...what do you think? ;-)
(and before we go down THAT road, from what I've read so far, I give Calvin the benefit of the doubt based on the thought of the day and Servetus' teachings)
Actually it's pizza and movie night at home and most weeks it's from the video cabinet. I can pretty well quote any Star Wars film, chapter and verse...
I resent that Jerry! That's MY job!!! ;-)
(Be careful out there)
It's a "triumph" psalm that speaks of the conflict between the wicked and the godly. It says that the godly are gonna wash their feet in the blood of the wicked....guess we're gonna take that one literally, right?
It says that these wicked folks begin going astray as soon as they're born. Well, it also says that they're like poisonous young snakes and that God should kill them while they're young.
Then they'll go to heaven, no doubt. Killing babies for Jesus.
Actually, the point of the psalm is that Judgement will eventually fall on those evil ones who seem to glide by without anyone apparently keeping them in line.
Am I reading you correctly? Can we give HenryVIII the benefit of the doubt, then, in the killing of women? How about those christians burned at the stake for translating the bible-- we gonna give them the benefit of the doubt? After all, it was the thing to believe in that era.
"I'd rather kiss a wookie!"
Wow. Awesome quote.
Be careful with the quotes about sects/cults. The powers that be on FR don't like sect/cult bashing. (Pardon -- we can blast away at the islamics.)
"I'd rather kiss a woody?" (Mrs Woody, that is.)
Didn't I say I didn't want to get into that? ;-)
After your post, I did some searching. Of the sources that I found none were unbiased. Either they were the unitarians talking about his martyrdom or the Calvinists talking about his heresy. So, again, based only on what I've read, which is limited, I am willing for now to let that one go. His offense was considered treason, a capital offense in those days (and now if we had any guts).
But let's save that for another day.
That can be arranged!
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