Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
We part company there.
The New Testament was written ,in large part, by those who walked with Jesus Christ. They wrote what they saw and heard, not what others told them. That is what makes the bible so valuable. God allowed those men to write - and he has preserved - the accounts and the teachings of Christ from those who were witnesses. The Old Testament is also valuable as it sets the stage for Christ and Isaiah 53 - written 700 years before Christ was on earth - describes him (his character) perfectly. To claim that God allowed falsehoods and man-made ideas to enter into the book that purports to represent Him doesn't compute for me. The bible is the Word of God. You are free to reject it but without it, you are wandering through the jungle of life that you have no compass, no guide, no map for and it is impossible to know God fully without knowing His Word.
He placed it there for our help, to know Him, not to mislead us and confuse us, as many attempt to do.
Calvinism is a religious doctrine that has been around a long time and has a minority of followers. It's false. It claims that scripture says God predetermined our eternal fate (heaven or hell) before time began. We have no Free Will in the matter, we're either one of the 'elect' or not. If not, bye-bye and no choice. Some merciful God they propose!
It's rubbish but has staunch defenders who have built their religion around this man-made misunderstanding of the bible. As with many bibical arguments, it gets pretty hot. People love to feel 'elect' and when you threaten that cocoon of 'electness' they get upset and defensive, to say the least. That's pretty much the content of this thread, I'm afraid. A doctrinal argument, but a serious one.
I hope you'll consider the bible and ignore the bickering here as we are mere men, contending over scripture, but we all accept the bible AS scripture - the Word of God, from God, not men.
As for his insistence that God doesn't play favorites, well, this is laughable really. I'm learning to have a real distaste for the NIV as I watch those who read it misuse scripture. It is a horrible translation of the Word. God obviously does play favorites. He chose Israel exclusively over all other nations; Jacob over Esau, etc.
And his quote from 1 Tim. 2 is very close to Universalist heresy. I'm sure that he doesn't want us to believe that God has commanded us to pray that the very PROPHECIES OF GOD be overthrown. In his zeal to overthrow our Calvinist position, he is not even considering what the scriptures he throws at us teach.
The desire for God is that which I feed every single day:
Psalm 27:4 One thing I have desired of the LORD, That will I seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD All the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD, And to inquire in His temple.You have no idea how beautiful the Lord is. Unless you believe in your heart that HE IS and is the rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him [for exactly who He is and not some idol of imagined fancy], you will have to view the beauty of the Lord from the torment of the Lake of Fire.
God has given me a growing hunger for Him and Him alone:
Psalm 42:2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?Don't miss out on the River of God; Repent and be saved. Taste my Jesus for the first time.
Because He wants me too, as His Word clearly states. He is not some absent God, sitting in heaven, aloof from his creation. He loves us and wants us to love Him, and He manifests himself to us through His Word, his creation and his Holy Spirit.
God is not an idea, He is real. Our mortality does not make us unworthy of God's love as we are His creation. He sent Christ to die for us and save us from the wages of our sin, spiritual death, apart from God for eternity. That was love beyond human understanding but we are free to accept the gift of salvation from God. He's our Father, not some stern taskmaster sending bolts of lightning out of his fingertips toward sinners.
As His word states, He is a God of love, not aloofness and we are his sons and daughters if we obey Him and the way to obey Him is to read and follow His word.
Attempts to paint God as some 'Spirit in the Sky' that you may simply acknowledge and then, by being 'good' (in your own eyes) and following your own conscience, be in His heaven eventually is a mistaken idea many have. That's an intellectual God, not the true God. A God you can conveniently keep at arms length by claiming He is too big to know so you can 'worship' Him in whatever way pleases you - but not God. That's a mistake.
Yes, He cares about us more than you realize and although we can never know Him fully as mortal beings, he does reveal Himself to us in many ways, and his Word - the bible - is a perfect, God-ordained guide to His desires for us and how we may draw closer to him. It is far more valuable a gift then you realize.
I await your response and I'm sure it will be interesting. I enjoy seeing attempts to state that scripture contradicts itself when your pet verses don't mesh with others, especially out of context. One book is perfectly correct but another is wrong or no, wait, it's the NIV that's wrong, that's it, no wait, I misunderstood it, that's it, blah blah blah. Your doctrine is false. You'll defend it to the death, like a good little Calvinist is supposed to and your buddies on the thread will amen you all night and all of the 'elect' can congratulate themselves on how special and blessed they are. Your comments are certainly interesting as is your smugness about your false doctrine of predestination.
As for my comments to stuartcr; I have a feeling that you must be used to people deferring to you - it's implied by your smugness and haughty disdain toward those who have the motivation to oppose you and expose your false doctrine that you cherish but guess what? You're not my teacher, my minister or my leader in any way. You're a false teacher and a blind guide. Of no use to me. I witness in my own way, guided by prayer, guided by God, not some sanctimonious Calvinist playing the wise man on the internet. Spare me. I'll contend with you and your misguided friends until I'm weary of the argument as Calvinists are usually next to impossible to sway about the doctrine that drives them, I understand that - your belief system is wrapped up in this foolishness and it's near impossible for you to abandon it despite proof to the contrary of your doctrine - but your comments regarding my messages to stuartcr are useless and using a non-believer as a pawn to contend over is beneath contempt, in my opinion.
Knock it off, brother.
If salvation is a predetermined work of God, not subject to any decision any man may naturally make, why was the death of Christ on a cross necessary?
This is not a baiting question, so no flames please. It just seems logical that God could have elected to save any man without the sacrifice of Christ if man's response to that sacrifice is not possible.
"Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" had nothing to do with their response to Christ. Why was His death necessary?
Actually, I take this as quite a compliment. Why should I be original when I can rely utterly upon the Word of my God? The praise that you talk about is not a burden in any way. My praise merely acknowledges the profound gratitude in my soul for the One who is my greatest desire. Lovers praise each other; men praise their cars or their favorite team or their favorite payer; they merely express the admiration in their hearts for what they delight themselves in. I praise my God because He is what I delight myself in.
You do not need answers, you need the Blood of Jesus. I praise my God specifically because of what He has done for me:
Isaiah 52:14 Just as many were astonished at you, So His visage was marred more than any man, And His form more than the sons of men;I cried out to Him (not my idea of Him); He saved me; I praise Him; He gets the glory: Psalm 50:23 Whoever offers praise glorifies Me... From the depths of my soul I show the gratitude I have for Him.Isaiah 49:16 See, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands; Your walls are continually before Me.
Sorry, I apologize to both of you, I realize you both mean well.
Why should you apologize for complimenting me?
Good question - but you've confused me with the Calvinists who are preaching predestination here.
Truth is, God pretdetermined before he formed the world that that all mankind should come to him and abide with Him forever (eternity) but sin put a barrier between God and man that the Mosiac Law worked around as many were saved by faith alone but Christ was the true atonement and His death on the cross was the one and only, final payment of the debt we could not - as sinful mortals - pay.
God gives mankind the choice of accepting the atonement of Christ by accepting Him as the savior or rejecting him, as most unfortunately choose to do. He does not predetermine our salvation, that is a cruel and destructive doctrine that I have opposed here and elsewhere when it rears it's head. It's defenders are quite obsessed with this doctrine and will never stop defending it, to their loss. It's false and worthless. They defend a lie that diminishes Almight God's grace and love for his creation, mankind. They should be ashamed but instead they are arrogant and proud of this false doctrine they espouse. Sad.
Don't take my word for it, take God's Word.
Hebrews 2:9
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN".
There are many more passages in scripture that refute the Calvinists but I'll leave you with this one:
John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me."
Friend, there is no 'elect'. Christ died for all. Some accept Him, some reject Him but He died for us and awaits us to simply come to Him and accept His love, salvation and eternal life. That is the gift of God, given freely. That many reject it is what makes Him a just God. We have the informed choice. Those who reject His gift (of salvation) will have no one but themselves to balme when Judgement Day finds them without excuse and without hope. They chose it.
The joy of Christ is that our acceptance of Him is voluntary. We are not robots. We are God's children and when we come to Him, as children, He receives us, without reservation. No special 'elect' people, no predestination exists. It's a false doctrine, false teaching and I urge you to reject it totally, as most have. Trust God, not man-made doctrine.
Well, you know the old lawyers adage; when you have the evidence on your side, argue the evidence.
When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts.
When you don't have either the evidence or the facts, pound the table and shout.
Woody's a good pounder and shouter.
I rest my case.
BUZZZ! Wrong again. Thanks for playing.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Sounds like free-will actions to me.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Again, more free-will actions. Doesn't say "But Noah was predestined to behave righteously toward God".
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.