Why I Believe Predestination

myself | 2/18/01 | myself

[Some hope remaining.]

You are correct that God's saving designs are penultimate and not ultimate. You are incorrect to assume that it is free will that is ultimate.

Well, I didn't read very much of the article you pointed me to but I'll say that in a sense you are correct. I wouldn't say it is free will that is ultimate, just that the ultimate, God's glory, requires free will. That's what I'm claiming. That doesn't mean you have to believe what I'm claiming.

BTW, answer this question: If free will exclusively determines salvation, then will people burn in hell because Johnny (for instance) doesn't get up off his duff and preach the gospel to Fred (for instance)? Fred then dies the next day where God simply tells him: "Oh, well, at least you have your free will. It is a marvelous gift I gave you, isn't it. Enjoy the Lake of Fire."

I am more in agreement with you on this question than you might have expected. If I viewed this scenario as the only alternative to predestination then I would have a hard time believing in free will. But I think there's another alternative.

[Some hope remaining.]

I'm not sure what Calvinists believe but maybe a Calvinist will respond. My own belief is that all babies who die before they are old enough to make their own choices will go to heaven.

[Jerry_M]

"God's glory, requires free will"

Really? And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. - Luke 19:37-40

God is not dependent upon us for anything.

[kcox]

So then why oppose abortion? Seems to me, under that belief that the unborn has a 100% chance of going to heaven for eternity. If born, especially in most areas of the globe it's odds are significantly worse of entering heaven.

[Jerry_M]

One reason that I didn't immediately answer kcox's question was due to the fact that I could almost sense the "baiting", as he aptly demonstrated to you.

We Calvinists have answered the question about the fate of babies many times on FR, and tend to see it as a smokescreen thrown up by those who oppose us. As a result, I don't choose to rush into answering these questions.

I could question you about your belief that babies are saved before they make concious choices (I think that you are way off track), but I don't think I will bother, yet.

[Jerry_M]

A hint as to why I thought kcox might be "baiting"? Look at his/her profile: Member since this morning.

[kcox]

I am very Calvinist in my doctrine btw, and a lurker for probably four years. I really love reading these threads, I discuss them with a couple of the deacons at my church all the time. Having officiated at several funerals for infants, I just hoped to get some input from some of the more vocal Calvinists on the topic. Not trying to bait.

[Some hope remaining.]

I suppose that for every lurker there will someday come a thread which cries out to have them add their own "wisdom" to the collection of knowledge. And so they will register and make their first post.

Either that or they have a reputation under a different name (or have even been banned) and feel the need to post under a new name to have their old wisdom reconsidered without pre-conceived bias. ;^)

[Jerry_M]

OK, I will trust you that your motives are pure. Sorry for my reaction, but normally those who bring up the "Calvinist/dead baby" question won't be happy no matte what we tell them.

It might be that one of the other folks in here can quickly come up with a link to some in-depth discussion on this topic. As a result, I will hold off a bit longer.

[FormerLib]

However, you have yet to define free will....

I have yet to say what the definition of "is" is, either. I just don't follow the purpose of these discussion when it degenerates into people attempting to redefine commonly used words and terms.

free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

[CCWoody]

Well, I didn't read very much of the article you pointed me to but I'll say that in a sense you are correct. I wouldn't say it is free will that is ultimate, just that the ultimate, God's glory, requires free will. That's what I'm claiming. That doesn't mean you have to believe what I'm claiming.

Umm!, would you be suggesting that before the creation of man and his free will that God did not have any glory? In what way in particular is God needy to man's free will?

I am more in agreement with you on this question than you might have expected. If I viewed this scenario as the only alternative to predestination then I would have a hard time believing in free will. But I think there's another alternative.

And you view would be....?

[kcox]

Just reinforces for, me why all man made theological boxes truly fail to encompass the mysteries of the gospel.

[Jerry_M]

What reinforces this?

What would you consider to be a "man made theological box"?

What do you consider to be a "proper" theological basis?

[CCWoody]

free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Does this mean that the Almighty must keep His hands off of all His creation, especially His created "dirt"? I guess the Apostle Paul has absolutely no free will; neither did Isaiah or Jeremiah; etc.

[Jerry_M]

"2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

While my Webster's New Dictionary contains this same secondary definition, do you really think that it has application when speaking of theological matters?

Can we discuss Biblical theology without accounting for "divine intervention"? Just the fact thatGod has revealed Himself in His Word is a "divine intervention".

[Jerry_M]

Hey Woody, if FormerLib is correct in his definition of "free-will" then I am sure glad that I don't have any!

Just like the Apostle Paul, I was merrily going my own way to hell when God showed up and denied me free-will by His "divine intervention". Praise be to his Holy name, He saved me from my sin and bondage.

[kcox]

I think the term man made theological box is pretty self explanatory. Calvinism,dispensationalism,armenianism,... all systematic theologies. Proper is probably not a term I would be comfortable with, but in general I take great comfort in knowing that the Holy Spirit who indwells me can enlighten me, as I earnestly search out the scriptures. Am I ever in error as I read and study? yes. Are all men? yes. Has any man ever cornered the market on truth as they have expounded the scriptures? no

[FormerLib]

Does this mean that the Almighty must keep His hands off of all His creation, especially His created "dirt"?

No, but it precludes Him forcing someone from acting in a certain way against their will.

I guess the Apostle Paul has absolutely no free will; neither did Isaiah or Jeremiah; etc.

Uh, yeah, sure, fine, whatever.

[FormerLib]

Can we discuss Biblical theology without accounting for "divine intervention"?

When discussing the narrow definition of a term such as "free will," we can.

[Jerry_M]

So, all systematic theologies are "man made" constructs.

Your post reminds me of something C.H. Spurgeon said:

"It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others." (His lecture on "Commenting and Commentaries" can be found here.)

There is a huge danger of being guilty of having a "personal interpretation" of Scripture, and this can lead to spiritual shipwreck. We have seen, on this thread alone, that there are many people who will merrily expose what they believe, all the while denying the truth of Scripture.