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To: TLBSHOW
... Hitler put Marx's theory to work in the death camps ...
This is a risible misreading of Marx's essay. Marx was a Jew. He never advocated liquidating the Jews. And Marx never linked Jews to capital because it Marx's era they weren't linked; they were linked to usury, not capitalist commodity production. In Marx's era most of Europe's Jews were poor and confined to ghettos; they lived in the margins. The "Jewish question"--and many authors of the era addressed the so-called "Jewish question"--was how would the newly founded nation states of Europe integrate the Jews into political life? Assimilation would buy the Jews equality, but it might also mean extinction for the Jews as a unique people. Etc., etc.

I am no Marxist. And I have no intention of defending Marx. But we do ourselves no service as conservatives when we get our facts wrong or misrepresent our adversaries.
27 posted on 02/18/2002 2:58:08 PM PST by Asclepius
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To: Asclepius
See my post #29.
30 posted on 02/18/2002 3:05:26 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: Asclepius
I suspect Marx, were he alive today, would cringe at what has been done in his name. Seeing how the more negative aspects of unrestrained capitalism have been checked, and that the middle class is basically productive and happy, I doubt that he would even be a Marxist.
33 posted on 02/18/2002 3:08:14 PM PST by ValenB4
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To: Asclepius
You obviously have not read Marx's essay. Karl Marx completely bought into the stereotype of the greedy, heartless Jew money-lender -- the very personification of the "vampiric forces of dead capital sucking the life blood of the workers" which featured in his life's work. Actually, Marx was an habitual debtor, and his ramshackle philosophy is a pretentious, pseudo-scientific amalgam of Hegelian mysticism and displaced personal resentment. Paul Johnson's Intellectuals includes an amusingly sardonic psychological portrait of the old fraud.
99 posted on 02/18/2002 9:31:39 PM PST by The Great Satan
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To: Asclepius
The "Jewish question"--and many authors of the era addressed the so-called "Jewish question"--was how would the newly founded nation states of Europe integrate the Jews into political life?

This is a ludicrously anodyne misreading of Marx's essay (assuming for a second that you have actually read the essay). The essay is widely available: I commend it to anyone interested in the subject. And, no, Karl Marx did not advocate the liquidation of the Jews, any more than he advocated the liquidation of the Kulaks. But the Jews represented the same thing for him as they did for Richard Wagner or Joseph Goebbels: the wickedness of egoism and trade, of social relations based on contract and economic calculation. No, Karl Marx is not the ancestor of Nazi anti-Semitism -- Marx merely endorsed the traditional view of Jews as "money-grubbers," and the "problem" of Jewry and Jewish money-idolatry is merely a side-issue in his writings, a problem supposedly to be resolved by the historically-determined destruction of the bourgeois liberalistic order and the institution of a utopian socialist society.

105 posted on 02/19/2002 7:46:18 AM PST by The Great Satan
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To: Asclepius; thucydides
many thanks to both for your comments, which are both correct and clearly aware of the enormous ignorance we have about the general history of this issue. By way of note, I was once one of those who had been brainwashed into accepting that fascism was a cancer of the extreme right; it wasn't until about 2 years ago that I was able to liberate myself of this lie.

Nevertheless, far too many people still accept the lie that fascism and nazism are children of the right. For my part, I can proudly recount here that since my liberation - literally Veritas vos Liberabit - I do not hesitate to counterattack any leftist who calls the right - or me... - a fascist.

Almost all their reactions - being comfortably accustomed as they are to seeing a conservative immediately slip into defensive mode when they launch this standard attack - are slack-jawed when I simply point out to them, "no, you're the fascist; fascism and the nazis... ie, national socialists are from your side of the ideological divide". I tell them to read their history (they're not used to being told what to do by a rightie, either... tough cookies, eh?) and come back to me when they've brushed up on the facts. They never do.

Here's to the Truth, Gentlemen, and to more souls discovering and firmly announcing it.

CGVet58

160 posted on 08/03/2004 6:36:43 PM PDT by CGVet58 (God has granted us Liberty, and we owe Him Courage in return)
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To: Asclepius

"This is a risible misreading of Marx's essay. Marx was a Jew. He never advocated liquidating the Jews. And Marx never linked Jews to capital because it Marx's era they weren't linked; they were linked to usury, not capitalist commodity production. In Marx's era most of Europe's Jews were poor and confined to ghettos; they lived in the margins. The "Jewish question"--and many authors of the era addressed the so-called "Jewish question"--was how would the newly founded nation states of Europe integrate the Jews into political life? Assimilation would buy the Jews equality, but it might also mean extinction for the Jews as a unique people. Etc., etc.

I am no Marxist. And I have no intention of defending Marx. But we do ourselves no service as conservatives when we get our facts wrong or misrepresent our adversaries."




There is nothing about Marx to defend. Hitler was not bright enough to come up with his plan to play "god" without the foundation laid by those of the mind of Marx. I have no clue what Marx being Jewish has to do with his writings and ideology. Each person is accountable for their own deeds and Marx has much to answer for, as each individual that follows his creed.

Honesty which is what you are seeking need cover all acts and people and stop this one up-man-ship of not placing responsiblity because of ones race, religion, or gender.


161 posted on 08/03/2004 6:57:29 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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