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To: Jeremy_Bentham
Those are excellent questions. No, my understanding of God is not based on my own impressions or my own thoughts of who God is. God does not speak to me in a Charlton Heston-like audible voice.

God is an objective fact. He is real whether I believe in Him or not. What I think of Him changes absolutely nothing about who and what He really is.

Were you to read the Bible with an eye for this, you might be astounded at the number of times the writers harken the ancient readers to the physical evidence they have of God's real and abiding presence. God Himself reminds the Israelites repeatedly to remember what He has done for them in leading them out of Egypt and the slavery. He asks them to rememebr what He said to Moses and the commandments He gave, and the long list of physical manifestations He brought among them to prove His presence.

The stories of Christ in the Bible are much the same. John makes reference to "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim."

In other words, the writers of the Bible did not expect people to just believe in something because they said so. They wanted people to know that they had personally witnessed that of which they spoke. They put their personal integrity on the line. They believed that Jesus was who He said he was because they saw Him do what He said He would do.

Perhaps you don't believe in God at all - I do not know. Consider, however, whether your stated beliefs actually line up with the way you live. Do you really live as if there is nothing else in the world beyond the material, that is beyond your flesh and bone, what you can see and hear?

Because if that is what you believe, and that is the case, then understand that you have nothing on which to base a concept of reality. It isn't enough because the person living next door to you who wants to rob you (for instance) may very well believe in something radically different from you, and you have no grounds from which to refute him at all. You cannot call on right and wrong, his concept of right and wrong may be radically different from yours. Who are you to say that he is wrong? What if he believes that stealing is just fine? What can you say?

Hormones, organic brain tissue, Pavlovian programming, and environment do not leave room for morality, because sin behavior can always be written off to one of the above factors.

It is the atheist that wants to sue the guy who wrecked his car, and who wants to press charges for stealing. In order to tell someone that what they are doing is wrong, you must be able to call on something Higher than you.

99 posted on 02/13/2002 2:09:40 PM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen
God is an objective fact.

If this is the case, then there must be some evidence of this objective existence, outside of the Bible. Is this nature? What is it in Nature that evidences the existence of God, or a Creator?

Do you really live as if there is nothing else in the world beyond the material, that is beyond your flesh and bone, what you can see and hear?

Yes, I do live as if there were nothing outside the physical, material universe.

Because if that is what you believe, and that is the case, then understand that you have nothing on which to base a concept of reality... You cannot call on right and wrong, his concept of right and wrong may be radically different from yours. Who are you to say that he is wrong? What if he believes that stealing is just fine? What can you say?

I disagree, and as an example, I present the theory of utilitarianism, which does not rely on a spiritual basis to determine what is right and what is wrong. Instead, it relies upon the material world, our pleasures and pains, comforts and discomforts, etc.

100 posted on 02/13/2002 2:51:13 PM PST by Jeremy_Bentham
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