My apologies for the confusion. You must have missed my reply #54.
The Tanak teaches us that in the beginning G-d "separated the light from the darkness" before the sources of incandescent light, sun, moon, stars, had been created. Therefore, the light He created must have been His glory.
The problem I have with this interpretation is that the light is created:
And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)
You must then posit that God existed before His glory, that His glory was not eternal, was not an inherent quality of His being.
As you know, G-d actually offered the Hebrews to live with them in their presence
And I will dwell among the people of Israel, and will be their God.
And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them forth out of the land of Egypt that I might dwell among them; I am the LORD their God. (Exodus 29:45-46)
Are you saying that this didn't happen? Please explain.
but they told Moses to do all the conversing with G-d because they could not live in His presence.
Moses spoke on their behalf, but they did hear God speak to them:
Then the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. (Deuteronomy 4:12)
They knew their sinfulness could not be in the presence of G-d's holiness without being destroyed.
God's presence was with them continually, by day and by night. Furthermore, you wouldn't suggest that Moses was without sin? And yet God knew Moses "face to face".
If Heaven is that place where G-d is
God is Omnipresent. He is everywhere on Earth as much as He is in Heaven. There is nowhere where He is NOT. His Presence sustains the existence of His creation.
what to do with people who reject G-d's rule?
Deuteronomy lists the curses that the people would undergo. These were temporal punishments. But God also said that when Israel repented and turned back to Him, He would restore the blessings He promised to their fathers.
I believe that's why He separated the light from the darkness. In His mercy he wanted to give those who rejected His rule someplace to spend eternity. I don't think it was created as hell. But I do believe that it will become hell when men try to set up their rule without G-d.
So you are saying that men choose hell. Do you believe then that God does not literally judge us, in the manner of Matthew 25?
In order to give you a complete answer I will need to have access to my Tanak. I don't have it here. But let me make two brief statements. G-d talked with Moses face to face, but He was separated from Israel by the veil which only the High Priest could penetrate and only after a very specific purification. So no, G-d did not dwell among them in the way that He desired. He desired the kind of face to face relationship He had with Adam before the fall.
As to the literal judgement, my understanding of the Hebraic concept (which is not necessarily good) has less to do with handing out a punishment and more to do with discerning the truth of a situation. We might actually call it "discernment." So I do believe that the story which Matthew records will happen after a fashion, but it will not be G-d handing down a punishment so much as discerning the result of the choice.
And as for the temporal blessing and cursing of Deuteronomy, it is my opinion that those are the blessing and cursing of the nation, which is created to be temporal, not of men, which were created to be eternal.
I am "unarmed" as it were today, but I will try to get you specific quotes this evening or tomorrow. I can't promise this evening because I have a lot to do this evening.
If you are really interested in the source of some of my understandings, contact The Center for Judaic-Christian Studies at www.jcstudies.com. If you talk to Dwight, you will be talking with a scholar who can discuss Talmud with the Rabbis yet has never been a Jew. He would be able to do much better off the top of his head than I can. I can't even read Hebrew.
Shalom.
angelo: The problem I have with this interpretation is that the light is created:
And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)
You must then posit that God existed before His glory, that His glory was not eternal, was not an inherent quality of His being.
You are correct on this one. My position would have been better stated that the light is the visible manefestation of His glory. We refer to this as the Shekinah. I did not mean to imply that His glory did not exist with Him for all time, but that there was no visible manefestation until there was a material universe in which such a thing would make sense. When He created the physical realm we call the universe, the first thing He did was create the physical (visible) manefestation of His glory. Thanks for the correction.
ArGee: As you know, G-d actually offered the Hebrews to live with them in their presence
angelo: And I will dwell among the people of Israel, and will be their God.
And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them forth out of the land of Egypt that I might dwell among them; I am the LORD their God. (Exodus 29:45-46)
Are you saying that this didn't happen? Please explain.
Exodus 25:8 (ESV)
And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.
G-d did not dwell directly with them. G-d was separated from them behind the veil of the sanctuary. He did this because they asked Him to stay apart from Him.
Exodus 20:18-19 (ESV)
Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off [19] and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die."
Therefore, G-d set up the Aaronic priesthood and only the High Priest could come into the Holy of Holies to represent the people to G-d, and G-d to the people.
Leviticus 16:2 (ESV)
and the Lord said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.
So, the full context of your quote above makes it more clear:
Exodus 29:43-45 (ESV)
There I will meet with the people of Israel, and it shall be sanctified by my glory. [44] I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. Aaron also and his sons I will consecrate to serve me as priests. [45] I will dwell among the people of Israel and will be their God.
G-d wanted to dwell with them, but because of their sinfulness they could not dwell there. Therefore G-d had Moses create the Tabernacle with the holy place so that He could dwell in their midst.
I do not suggest that G-d "changed His mind." Rather, He allowed Israel to understand the consequences of their unrighteousness before He gave them the Tabernacle.
angelo: Moses spoke on their behalf, but they did hear God speak to them:
Then the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. (Deuteronomy 4:12)
According to my reading of this passage, this is the original event of the Sounding, where the people realized their unrighteousness and asked G-d to remain separate from them. Do you suggest that this was always the case? That there was never a time when the Priests or the Prophets heard the voice of G-d, but not everyone?
angelo: God's presence was with them continually, by day and by night. Furthermore, you wouldn't suggest that Moses was without sin? And yet God knew Moses "face to face".
I would not suggest that Moses was without sin. Yet Moses was not allowed to see G-d's face.
Exodus 33:20 (ESV)
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."
Exodus 33:23 (ESV)
Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."
Yet, you are correct that Moses spoke with G-d "face to face."
Exodus 33:11 (ESV)
Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Not only Moses, but other men as well. So, is this a contradiction, or is something different meant in the two passages? angelo: God is Omnipresent. He is everywhere on Earth as much as He is in Heaven.
While I accept this theologically, do you posit that it is impossible for G-d to create a place where He is not?
angelo: Deuteronomy lists the curses that the people would undergo. These were temporal punishments. But God also said that when Israel repented and turned back to Him, He would restore the blessings He promised to their fathers.
And, as I said in another post, these are blessings and cursings on nations. Are you not familiar with the fact that individuals can, indeed, flout the law and not suffer? Have you read Habakkuk? Individuals died unpunished, yet Israel was punished.
angelo: So you are saying that men choose hell. In a nutshell, yes. With a full understanding of what they are choosing.
angelo: Do you believe then that God does not literally judge us, in the manner of Matthew 25?
I find it odd that you, who reject eternal punishment, would ask me about a passage which supports eternal punishment. However, as I said in another post, I believe these passages represent people receiving the consequences of their choice to be G-d's or not to be G-d's people.
Now I have a question for you.
G-d made it clear that no one was righteous and that the only way to atone for sin was with blood. Since the destruction of the temple the observance of Yam Kippur has replaced blood sacrifice to atone for sin. Was this change given by the mouth of G-d?
Shalom.