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Does even God know the future?
Providence Journal/AP ^ | 2/02/02 | RICHARD N. OSTLING

Posted on 02/02/2002 5:55:06 AM PST by LarryLied

It wasn't the usual news headline: "Scholars Vote: God Knows Future."

Thus did Christianity Today magazine summarize an Evangelical Theological Society convention that climaxed a doctrinal dispute which has been brewing for years among evangelical Protestants. At issue is whether God has total knowledge of the future or somewhat limited knowledge.

The movement known as Open Theism or Openness Theology is attacking, among other things, the classical belief in God's "omniscience" (all-knowing nature) and complete "foreknowledge" of the future. It cites the Bible to underscore God's vulnerability, limitations and responsiveness to human events and claims that traditional belief stems from ancient Greek philosophy more than from Scripture.

It's intriguing that nowadays such Protestant challenges to orthodoxy come with more vigor and originality from Bible-based evangelicals than from old-fashioned liberals.

The evangelical meeting chastised Open Theism with this resolution:

"We believe the Bible clearly teaches that God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

The vote on that was 253 "yes" and 66 "no," with 41 abstentions, but the magazine said most of the "no" voters and abstainers didn't disagree with the substance but disliked targeting colleagues.

However difficult, this is no dry doctrinal debate. It affects how we understand prayer, providence, why evil things happen in this life and the nature of individuals' moral freedom. Those seeking to explore the fight should note four new books:

The latter book is the best place to start. A quick glance:

Boyd and other openness thinkers say God can't know the future perfectly and that he changes his mind in response to human events; they cite Bible passages that speak in those terms. Confusingly, Boyd insists he believes that God is "omniscient" after all.

Jeremiah 18:1-11, an example cited by Boyd and friends, has God telling the prophet to observe a potter fashioning clay and says that if Israel turns from its wicked ways, "I will repent of the evil that I intended to do."

Helm says that while openness thinkers stress Bible passages about God's dialogues with humanity, their opponents cite other passages that teach "all things" aspects of God such as omniscience and that stress his awareness of the future and his unchanging nature.

"Neither side is going to convince the other by swapping texts," Helm concludes. He believes that sinners need promises from God they can utterly rely on. Open theology, he asserts, is too shallow concerning biblical truth about sinful humans' need for redemption and God's power to provide it.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
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1 posted on 02/02/2002 5:55:06 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
Not only does The Almighty know the future, He also knows the future of any possible choice we, as free-willed endowed beings, might make.

That's why it's always a good idea to seek His advise before choosing which fork in the road to take.

2 posted on 02/02/2002 6:07:14 AM PST by woofer
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To: LarryLied
I believe that if God knew the future, he would not have bothered with creation.
3 posted on 02/02/2002 6:10:25 AM PST by Maceman
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To: LarryLied
"We believe the Bible clearly teaches that God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

Yeah, hello -- Marketing 101. If you start offerring a lesser god, the competitor religions will be able to differentiate with a greater god -- and then the sheep will switch flocks. And you know what that means to the Sunday-collection plate bottom line, ehy?

4 posted on 02/02/2002 6:13:58 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: woofer
That's why it's always a good idea to seek His advise before choosing which fork in the road to take.

So people who come to ill just didn't pray hard enough?

5 posted on 02/02/2002 6:16:04 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: LarryLied
I'm no theologian, but I believe that God lives outside of space and time. He has a synopic view of all of Space-Time. He therefore sees our future completely. God Himself has no future, since he is outside of Time and is eternal.

--Boris

6 posted on 02/02/2002 6:18:59 AM PST by boris
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To: LarryLied
P.S. I recommend Julian Barbour's The End of Time. I read the book and don't understand a word. I even corresponded--sort of--with Barbour. So I am recommending the book so that others may become as confused as I am...and maybe there will be someone who reads it and understands it well enough to explain it to me.

I'm re-reading it now.

--Boris

7 posted on 02/02/2002 6:20:54 AM PST by boris
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To: LarryLied
Considering God is presumed to be the Alpha and the Omega. I Would also presume infinity includes the future...

Note: the presumption was already presumed too.

8 posted on 02/02/2002 6:22:03 AM PST by Rain-maker
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To: boris
I'm no theologian, but I believe that God lives outside of space and time.

Huh! That's coincidental!

I, too, am out of space -- and out of time.

9 posted on 02/02/2002 6:22:50 AM PST by Lazamataz
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To: Maceman
If you do not believe in God's omniscience then you do not believe in God. You believe in something that allows you to do wrong and be forgiven. Notice I did not say make mistakes and be forgiven.  God's omniscience is God's proof of existence.  Without it there is no need for God.
10 posted on 02/02/2002 6:25:06 AM PST by sinclair
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: LarryLied
God has the power to know anything that he needs to know. However, God also has the power to not know that which he has no need to know.

God's relationship with man is based on trust. Trust is the basis of building a love relationship. 1 John 4:16 "God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him."

When I trust my son, I have faith in him that he will be true to our agreement. When he turned 16, I trusted him to drive the car---I did not jump into the back seat to see if he would be true to that entrustment of responsibility. I trusted him--therefore, I had no need to see into the future to make sure he would do as I say. I had no need to consult a fortune teller because I trusted him.

This means that if my son is not true to my entrustment of him, I will suffer consequences. . .I will be affected. . .I become vulnerable. This is the hard part of being a parent. This is the position that God placed himself in when he created us as his image and gave us the potential to share in his loving nature.

It is why Genesis 6:6 reports of God's immeasurable sorrow after humanity violated the bond of trust with God.

12 posted on 02/02/2002 6:27:48 AM PST by McBuff
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To: jlogajan
And you know what that means to the Sunday-collection plate bottom line, ehy?

Karl Marx did see man as an purely economic animal but he was wrong. Money is not what compels man to seek God.

13 posted on 02/02/2002 6:31:15 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: jlogajan
Talk about negativity.

Hey if, Jehovah doesn't know the future and he's not the all powerful god who created the universes, then Judiasm and Christianity would both be founded on a lie. If that we're true... I'd sure like to know it!

However, if it is true, then to hold belief in Him (& his son Jesus) just because of negative preconceptions about some of the followers who aren't living consistent with their beliefs is a pretty foolish thing... don't ya think?

Whether you like it or not, the Bible is full of prophecies (hundreds) and many of which have come true. For example, there were 30 major prophecies about the messiah (where he would be born, bloodline, how he would die, etc.). All of which fulfilled in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

What about other Old Testament prophecies (e.g. those in Daniel which fortold of the fall of Babylon and even mentioned the names of those that would divide up the kingdom - even before the kingdom was established). Many times in the OT the future was foretold and how it was fulfilled is recorded there as well.

If this almighty God that we Christians believe in is outside of the space time continuum, then yes, most definitely he can fortell the future. If he's limited by time just as we are, then there's no explanation for those times the future was fortold by Him through the prophets.

Either He knows the future and those things in the Bible are true. Or He's not and He's limited in the same manner that we are and what we believe is a lie.

Do you have any evidence to show that no time in the Bible a prophetic statement was made which was not later fulfilled?? Or least least can you discount many of those which were fulfilled?

14 posted on 02/02/2002 6:32:46 AM PST by blue jeans
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: RnMomof7
Ping for Christian discussion
16 posted on 02/02/2002 6:34:35 AM PST by jude24
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To: blue jeans
Slight correction:

However, if it is true, then to hold belief in Him (& his son Jesus) in contempt just because of negative preconceptions about some of the followers who aren't living consistent with their beliefs is a pretty foolish thing... don't ya think?

There... that's more like it.

17 posted on 02/02/2002 6:34:45 AM PST by blue jeans
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To: boris
That is on target. Since He created the universe, He also created time. He therefore can access any time He wants in any order He wants and therefore has complete knowledge of the past, present and future. C. S. Lewis had a good explanation of this in 'Mere Christianity'. Also, to help clarify the concept of existing outside of space and time, one might try reading Edwin Abbot's 'Flatland'.
18 posted on 02/02/2002 6:39:04 AM PST by 17th Miss Regt
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To: LarryLied
I don't think GOD knows the precise future. I would believe He knows the general trend and the like. Millions of decisions made by millions of people, storms, events every second would change the course of history as it marches on.

If He knows the precise future, He would be bored to death by now!

19 posted on 02/02/2002 6:39:37 AM PST by Sen Jack S. Fogbound
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To: LarryLied
YHWH/elohim stands outside the time line. He is a transendental God which knows the past, present and future.

Think of you as drifting down a river. You know where you have been, you see the river banks now, but you don't know what is around the bend.

Now think of God in a helicopter above the river. He can see where you have been, where you are, and where you are going.

You are free to make the choices that you make, but God knows in advance what you will decide.

20 posted on 02/02/2002 6:40:22 AM PST by Citizen Tom Paine
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