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To: George W. Bush
He would be creating a miracle in the hearer's ears or brains for them to perceive the sound waves in their own tongue which would again make nonsense of "tongues" having any role in Pentecost. And yet the "tongues" folk are essentially saying that their strongest scriptural justification for tongues and the event best described in scripture has nothing to do with the speaker's tongue at all!

Yeah, I'd alluded to that ("tongues" vs. "ears"), but not so specifically.

...So if an evangelist at Pentecost spoke a word in his own language that had five lip movements but the corresponding language in which he was heard had that word as three lip movements, then apparently the crowd at Pentecost were the first ones to ever see a really bad lip-syncing job! Like what we see in some cheap foreign film.

(ROTFL)... hoo, boy. Funny stuff. And I agree.

But that said...

I think that what amazed the listeners was that they spoke those languages with current venacular, not a trace of foreign accent, not an indication that the fishermen were anything other but another guy from their own hometown. In short, their "tongues" were those of native speakers.

I agree with this statement even more strongly. As I said above, I don't endorse the idea of an "ears miracle" when Luke is plainly talking about a "tongues miracle", but to me, the main point is that Tongues is a Miracle of real communication, not unintelligible gibbering.

Once we have discounted the idea of sanctified gibbering as being simply UnScriptural, we're just arguing about the operational mechanics of the Miraculous Communication.

I wonder also if the conversion of the foreigners was God's only intent in the use of tongues at Pentecost. I also think that He used it to prove to those early key disciples His power and glory, to give them one of many experiences of His power through them to work His will, to make them fishers of men, the kind of courage required for most of them to ultimately lay down their own lives as martyrs in testimony of Christ and to build His church.

Actually, as long as it is recognized as just a sensible inference and not explicit Scripture, I agree with this as well. Matter of fact, while Tongues is used in Acts 2 primarily to advance the Gospel, it is used primarily to confirm the Gospel in Acts 10.

Anyway, nuff said.

260 posted on 01/17/2002 5:43:25 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; vmatt
As I said above, I don't endorse the idea of an "ears miracle" when Luke is plainly talking about a "tongues miracle", but to me, the main point is that Tongues is a Miracle of real communication, not unintelligible gibbering.

Just one more.

It's a little ironic when the modern speakers of tongues who can't be understood by any listeners in any language start claiming that the miracle of Pentecost was not the speaking of tongues, but the hearing of tongues. This is bizarrely ironic. I think the modern tongues folk don't know that they're telling us directly that they have no relation to the miracle of Pentecost at the very time when they think they have made their strongest claim to it. It's weirdly irrationl.

Okay, I'll try to contain any more comments. But it is wonderful to discuss an event from the Gospels in detail. Our discussions so often center around the Pauline epistles.
263 posted on 01/17/2002 6:19:24 PM PST by George W. Bush
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