capitalism is a Government Program

ABC This Week | 1/13/2002 | George Will

[xm177e2]

Stuff has a habit on this forum of ending up in Breaking News even though people don't put it there. I think it's because of the changes JohnRob made to the software (the bugs should be worked out eventually).

[TopQuark]

Thanks for the explanation. I defer completely to your right of presenting an entirely new framework. However, in this case you the onus is on you to introduce new terms. You may want to call your system something like neo-capitalism, or super-capitalism, if you like. But, forgive me, you cannot expect people to understand you when you, and you alone, use well-defined terms is a different meaning.

But, like you said, given your interpretation of the word, we may be in alsmost complete agreement. Thanks for your reply.

[Praxeologue]

You probably meant "one's beliefs" in general

That's what I meant.

I should have been more Freespific (sp?).

[PatrioticAmerican]

You're kidding, right? You agree, then, with Klintoon that taxes are "contributions"?

If I take something from you and decide what you will receive in return, then you have lost authority over your labors that produced it. You have lost your freedom to decide. You are then a slave as it is the master who controls your labors.

Communists believe that the loss of control does not mean a loss, but a win, if the government returns something to you. If that is the case, then we should all gladly fork over 100% of our earning for the great investment that the communists believe the government provides. Right?

I am not a communist. I believe that I, and I alone, can decide what is best for my labors. I decide how to provide for my family and my community.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"There is hardly any interference in this area: the government does not dicate to you whether, where, to whom, or when you should sell of gift your house. "

One phrase: Death Taxes. They do tell you how to gift your property. The government takes it at your death. Government ownership of property is a basic tenant of communism.

You also forgot one important point: The government takes your property from you, such that you do not get to decide when or to whom you will dispose of your property.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"Secondly, your taxes provide you with the ownership of a great number of things. In essense, you hire your government(s) to produce public goods for you that would not be provided in a government-free economy. "

The government takes ten times more from me than I receive. Is that the investment you deem so proper? Only a government can provide such things as roads, but I only argue that our government provides far more than the constitution allows it, and takes from us in the same regard.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"So, when you own your house, it does not mean that you have absolute control over it. "

Wanna explain that one? The government charges "land rents". We know them as property taxes. Fail to pay your rent, you lose your right to live on the property and pay rent. In England that was a strong point of contention.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"No, you the government "controls" 33% of the profit, not the assets. You decide what to do with assets. "

Have you ever run a company? Decisions on assets are based on the tax code, not what is best for the company.

Remember this important point: Control can be direct or indirect, and both can be tyranny.

[PatrioticAmerican]

" Most people do not realize that a purely market economy is incapable of producing public goods such as roads, street lighting, police, army. "

That is what communists say, and it is exactly the main difference between communists and capitalists. Communism relies on government and that reliance continues until no one is left producing anything in the private sector.We didn't even have a police until 1820, or so. Street lighting? My community provides its own and there is no government that conrtols it.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

"...You're either with us or you're against us...."

But getting back to Will's "slip of the tongue"--Don't you think it's amazing in and of itself? Am I reading too much into it? I don't think so.

This is a clear indication of how the bureaucratic/managerial Class is going to produce the next election pageant. It's going to be a fight over who best will conserve, defend and expand "FDR World"!!

The Republican Party which was, after all, never conservative in any fundamental sense of the word, managed to revive itself by exploiting the intellectual and emotional energy of homeless culture warriors, wild-hair libertarians, etc. Now that they're back in the game the burkha of "conservatism" can be lifted a bit for a clearer view.

AND it explains why there is no essential dissatisfaction with the concept of eternal warfare against "terrorism" wherever it may be holeing up. The war on terror is going to provide the public works projects for whichever latter-day FDR wins the next election. Naturally they can't dig around in the Homeland anymore because of "enlightened" environmental concerns. War and nation-building will be the means by which the "needy" are provided jobs.

In the 30s they built dams. In the 10s we will build Camp Bondsteels all over the world. Complete with "education centers"--"How to live in the modern world"..."Capitalism in one Easy Lesson"..."Success on Two Dollars a Day"...

Slip of the tongue. Life is a government program.

[cicero's_son]

I don't know. I've never been terribly impressed with Will (aka, Alfalfa with a Thesaurus). He's not a clear thinker, and unclear thinkers tend to utter unclear thoughts. Was it a slip of the tongue for which his Corporatist (I try never to use "capitalism" to describe our current economic program) masters will punish him? Or is he just another Sunday morning goon trying to hump his next book? Who knows.

I'm not quite as conpiratorially minded as you are, BelleDame. I don't think anyone (or anyone serious at least) has developed a 5 Year Plan around building Camp Rhinos in various desertified countries. If anything, his remark betrays the common mindset, the "breathing together" con-spiracy that, I believe, Askel5 has referred to. There is nothing under the sun that ISN'T a government program to these people.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I'm not a conspiracy fan either. The "Banana Peel Theory of History" appeals to me more. The more planning Our Betters inflict upon us--the more banana peels mysteriously appear in the road.

I'm just beginning to spy a pattern in the slip-ups--that's all. Maybe particular brands of bananas cause certain predictable contortions as the body goes down. Or maybe it varies from bunch to bunch. I'll have to work on that.......

[TopQuark]

I have written a lengthy post, in which I tried to give a detailed view. Your reply addresses none of these points, yet brings a multitude of other statements (claims that I agree with Clinton, etc.). Unless we nail down one issue, it is not productive to broaden the scope.

[TopQuark]

Wanna explain that one? I did:

So, when you own your house, it does not mean that you have absolute control over it. Specifically, ownership does not imply, and has never in the past implied total control. Across cultures and times. It seems to me that this should be the starting point of comparisons, not some imaginary "absolute control = ownership."

[TopQuark]

TQ: " Most people do not realize that a purely market economy is incapable of producing public goods such as roads, street lighting, police, army. "

Patriot: That is what communists say,

No, I tried, and apparently failed, to explain to you that this issue is not of political economy; it is unrelated to the "capitalist-communist" dichotomy.

It stems from the rational behavior of agents, and you can verify this in any economic textbook.

[TopQuark]

The government takes ten times more from me than I receive. You substitute again the subject of discussion. I was responding to the question of taxation, whether it is proper for the government to extract taxes. You address the question of valuation. APparently, to you our military, public highways, etc. are not worth the taxes you are paying. That is fine, but irrelevant to the question we discussed.

[TopQuark]

TQ: "There is hardly any interference in this area: the government does not dicate to you whether, where, to whom, or when you should sell of gift your house. " PA: One phrase: Death Taxes. How does this contradict what I said?

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

George Will is absolutely correct. Capitalism requires a framework within which to work, and it relies upon a government to support that frame work. If you disagree, consider this:

You have a retail business which buys produced goods and sells them for a profit. A competing business moves into town, and both your profit margins shrink as you comptete for customers. Sounds like the market is working, right? Then one day your business burns to the ground. Nobody saw the fire start, and you lost everything. That's "pure capitalism" without government, you lose.

Now if there was government you would have arson laws, the ability to have the state do an investigation into the fire, insurance to cover your loss, laws to prevent the insurance company from refusing your claim, and a host of other protections. That is what George Will meant when he said that capitalism is a government program. This is in regards to the Enron case where we have laws to protect those who lost all their money through illegal business practices and we have laws to hold accountable those who concieved and implimented the illegal business practices. Without the government, the employees and stockholders lose, and the accounting firm and top executives escape unharmed.

[cicero's_son]

"The more planning Our Betters inflict upon us--the more banana peels mysteriously appear in the road."

Very funny! I love the idea of casting all of their machinations, 5 Year Plans, and dog-wagging as nothing more than crass slapstick! As usual, you've opened up a whole new way of looking at it for me.

[PatrioticAmerican]

Ownership doesn't equal absolute control? Why is that? what controls do I not have when I own something?