HP customers furious over missing XP recovery disks - If you break it, buy another one...

Silicon.com ^ | Thursday 10th January 2002 12:43pm | Sally Watson

[colette_g]

Angry Hewlett-Packard customers have forced the computer manufacturer into a U-turn after it scrapped recovery disks for its latest range of Pavilion PCs.

HP ditched the standard backup CDs in favour of installing Windows XP recovery files on a partition on the hard drive, prompting scores of users to complain.

Customers posted irate messages on HP's technical support site and bombarded the manufacturer with phone calls demanding to be sent the disks.

One customer wrote: "I really think that HP is putting out a raw deal when you buy their new XP systems and you don't get any recovery CDs. What happens if the warranty runs out and the hard drive physically dies?"

Another Pavilion customer returned her machine in disgust. "One person from [HP] support said I would have to purchase a retail version of XP if my hard drive failed. Another said I could purchase a hard drive from HP with XP preinstalled, but could not tell me how much it would cost," she wrote.

Customers complained that the move could jeopardise recovery following damage to the hard drive and would also prevent deliberate partitioning of the drive to add a second OS like Linux.

According to HP's product description recovery CDs are included in the Pavilion package. But when silicon.com reader, Ian Rowe, contacted HP he was initially told that CDs for the model did not exist.

An email from customer support told him: "HP recommends that you do not replace the hard disk as it is preloaded with Windows XP. The operating system will be lost if the hard disk is replaced. If you further wish to replace the hard disk, please purchase a retail version of Windows XP from your reseller and install it on the new hard drive."

Rowe told silicon.com: "From the moment I bought the PC, to the current time, it is not mentioned that you will not be able to upgrade the hard disk in the PC. Certainly nothing in any agreement that states that I am not entitled to do so without purchasing a new copy of XP."

Contrary to HP's advice, Microsoft claims that even if XP recovery files on the hard drive are damaged or lost, the company can use its authentication technology to identify legitimate users and replace the OS for free.

Under pressure from angry customers, HP began sending out CDs in late December. But according to a spokeswoman for HP UK, recovery disks will only be provided for customers who complain and will still not be included with the original PC.

"The recovery data is now stored on the hard drive, and you're not usually going to lose the hard drive if it crashes," she said.

But this explanation is unlikely to pacify angry customers.

"I bought HP because they stood for quality and getting a good piece of equipment for the value," one Pavilion user wrote on HP's message board. "When cutting corners like this starts affecting the morale and attitude of customers, then nobody wins."

Have you had problems with HP? Or recovering Windows XP? Let us know by posting a reader comment below or emailing editorial@silicon.com

[kAcknor]

upgrade to XP with a retail version for a week now. No luck

kAcknor Sez:

I picked up an HP keyboard, one of those "do everything, has every button on it" things. It was cheep. ;) However, when I visited the HP site to find a driver, I read (concerning the system the KB had originally came with), "HP does not recommend upgrading to Windows 2000, and if you do this component will no longer function." This system wasn't a year old yet! That was enough for me... Any company that will hang it's customers out to dry by failing to provide driver updates will never get my recommendation or business.

I don't personally own an HP (thank goodness) but I have one to maintain at a client's office. It's a Win98 box that has taken to freezing up once a day for no apparent reason. Not sure if it came with a recovery CD or not. Going to have to find out soon enough I guess. This thread will help. :)

"tIqIpqu' 'ej nom tIqIp" (Hit them hard and hit them fast.)

Basic HTML help for new FR posters. <Ver 1.4>

[Cold Heat]

I am afraid that I know the exact reason for HPs actions.

On past MS operating systems it was often necessary to replace the entire system with the OEM disk. This was the best way to cure a crash problem and was done as often as needed without disturbing one bit of data or programs. The XP disk is different.

I have found to my dismay that the documents folder gets zapped as well as links to other programs. The data remains but there are no links to get at it. The hard drive appears to be repartitioned somehow and programs will fail to run without reloading. After reloading you end up with duplicate files that get corrupted after running de-frag.

I'm no computer guru, but MS had better do something about this or all hell will break loose on their collective butts! I logged a complaint with Dell and if I knew exactly what the heck is going on with this I could be more helpfull. This is not a good thing.IMHO

I had to reformat and do a clean install after all this crap. The OS is now working like a champ.

[Don Joe]

"It could just as easily have been OS/2 that ran on all those PCs."

You're kidding, right?

OS/2 was there first, but it just didn't happen, did it. OBTW, Microsoft wrote OS/2 too, FWIW.

IBM was fixated on their proprietary PS/2 iron, and they saw OS/2 as being the other side of the same coin.

Between IBM's failure to market it, and its inherent unfriendliness compared to Windows (and I say that as an OS/2 early adopter, going back to the 16 bit version with the infamous "DOS box" that dopeslapped a 286 into multitasking a single real mode session), it was doomed.

To an extent, the generic x86 hardware and Windows was a chicken/egg situation, but by the same token, if not for Windows, people simply wouldn't have bought "standard" computers in the numbers that were ultimately responsible for the current dirt cheap prices.

If Windows disappeared tonight, it would be the death of the entire industry, and that's not because it's some imaginary "monopoly". It's because there's simply nothing else in its class, period. The *nixers carved out their niche, and it's theirs, and theirs alone. NWIH is Joe Consumer gonna go down that road even if you jam a pitchfork into his butt. Same thing with Be, and any other fringe OS. These things don't languish because MS prevents them from competing. They languish because people don't want them.

[mercy]

Should I be worried about those "" "" marks? (g)

[Harrison Bergeron]

"What's your answer to the piracy problem?"

I have no piracy problem. I purchased my Win 2K Pro OS from CompUSA for $200. The fact is, that not even Microsoft has a solution to their so-called "piracy problem" - not even with the authentication routine that punishes legit users. As someone pointed out, all of Asia is already working from the same Micosoft Office disk, as they likely will with a corporate non-authenticated load of Win XP.

If MS wants to solve their perceived "problem," let them do what the publishers did. Lobby overseas for strict enforcement of copyright laws and do their overseas marketing in a way that convinces users that they're getting something for their money. Machievellian schemes depriving paying customers of installable media will eventually - eventually - open the door for any monopolistic enterprise's worst nightmare - a successor.

[Cold Heat]

See my post 102 or 103(can't remember) I also upgraded from ME. Major screw ups. Freep mail me if you like. I have the solution, and the only solution.

[Landru]

"Do you reckon this scam is local to HP or are other manufacturers are in on this?"

I can't speak about all the other PC makers; however, I recieved a brand spanking new Dell 4300 with every light, buzzer & bell ya can get including an amazing 17" flat panel LCD screen as a gift.
The whole shebang came with Windows XP preinstalled, and a Windows XP recovery disk; also included was the Roxio CD R/W disc, uSoft Encarta w/ Works Suite 2001, Sound Blaster & all the other software found on the machine to include a CD with nothing but drivers.

Now I'd owned a Compaq Presario prior to this, & the PURE grief, the give-a-damn attitude of Compaq's people when I spoke with 'em in the past?
Made the choice of a Dell an easy one; a virtual no-brainer.

...btw: since HP *is* now Compaq they were out of the running from the get-go as birds of the feather...

[Don Joe]

"What's your answer to the piracy problem?"

"See #15

You know, he asked you a serious question, and then you throw that nonsense at him?

The answer to piracy of Microsoft products is to have people run Linux, eh? Would you care to extend that logic, and see where it takes us? The answer to the street crime is to tell people to stay at home? The answer to embezzlement is to run your business with Monopoly Money? The answer to carjackings is to take the bus?

[Don Joe]

They'll fade away with time. :)

(I was too lazy to italicize, that's all.)

[steve-b]

Being charged for an OS that you, in reality, don't get to keep in the form of a stored installable copy is an unfriendly practice.

Particularly since the OS already includes a system which prevents installation of duplicate copies on additional machines, which is the justification offered for the "recovery disk" nonsense in the first place.

Either hand out a real WinXP disk with a WinXP system, or fess up that it's now part of your business model to charge the consumer twice for the same product.

[steve-b]

IBM was fixated on their proprietary PS/2 iron, and they saw OS/2 as being the other side of the same coin.

"OS/2 for PS/2 -- Half an operating system for half a computer"

[Doctor Stochastic]

The Groves giveth and the Gates taketh away.

[razorback-bert]

But the absolute worst "feature" is the Win XP authentication routine that talkes a snapshot of your system hardware, stores it via the internet at Microsoft HQ in Redmond, then shuts your system down if you upgrade your computer significantly enough to make it look like a new machine.

This if true stops me from buying XP, because I do photography and am upgrading different parts all the time.

Is XP my OS or the computer's?

If it is mine, I should be able to use it on any computer I chose.

[Don Joe]

"What happened to Gateway?"

They get the award for making commercials even lamer than Dell. The goofy Gateway CEO meeting with the talking cow (with a man's voice btw, what's up with that?) and the promotion giving away some stupid game disk with every purchase was enough for me to steer (no pun) way clear of their stores for my holiday PC needs.

Don't forget IBM's "Leon". Ugh.

[Don Joe]

"OS/2 for PS/2 -- Half an operating system for half a computer"

There was a GIF making the rounds Way Back When, put together by an Amiga wag, made to look like an IBM ad, during the time period after the introduction of the PS/2 hardware, but before they finally got OS/2 out the door. It had a picture of a PS/2 tower, and said something like, "Yesterday's hardware today, yesterday's software tomorrow -- IBM!" (I forget the exact wording but that was the gist of it.) It was a great chuckle-evoker, not that it helped keep the Amiga afloat, of course.

[colette_g]

Unfortunately, the XP license is for the computer. My favourite license was the one used by Borland for it's products like Delphi, which stated that you could install the software in multiple locations, but that only one copy could be used at any one time, making the license for the user rather than the computer. I believe they termed it their "like a book" license.

[Harrison Bergeron]

"Either hand out a real WinXP disk with a WinXP system, or fess up that it's now part of your business model to charge the consumer twice for the same product."

The new OEM business model, it would seem, is to lease the use of the OS to the consumer, but withhold the stored media and pass on the cost as if it were purchased.

AFAIC, the practice does more to encourage pirating than it does to prevent it. IMost people would not feel the least bit guilty for downloading the corporate unauthenticated Win XP load if their unarchived OEM load got smoked with a crashed hard drive. Only via weasel worded lawyer language in the shrink wrap license agreement can you pirate something that you've bought and paid for.

[Don Joe]

I have no piracy problem. I purchased my Win 2K Pro OS from CompUSA for $200. The fact is, that not even Microsoft has a solution to their so-called "piracy problem" - not even with the authentication routine that punishes legit users. As someone pointed out, all of Asia is already working from the same Micosoft Office disk, as they likely will with a corporate non-authenticated load of Win XP.

If MS wants to solve their perceived "problem," let them do what the publishers did. Lobby overseas for strict enforcement of copyright laws and do their overseas marketing in a way that convinces users that they're getting something for their money. Machievellian schemes depriving paying customers of installable media will eventually - eventually - open the door for any monopolistic enterprise's worst nightmare - a successor.

While Asian piracy is rampant, that doesn't diminsh the effect of the vast amount of domestic piracy. It's not the street vendors in Peking screaming bloody murder about XP, it's the Warez Kidz and their ilk.

[colette_g]

Ah the Amiga! Now there was a piece of kit way before it's time. Multitasking gui available when PC's were still struggling with dos. I sort of remember a gui called Gem coming out for PC's round about that time, but I think it only had < 5 applications available for it.

[Bush2000]

Read this article and decide for yourself: http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/xp_activation.asp

Top 10 Myths About Product Activation

Product activation will hamper corporate customers’ deployment of software.

Actually, corporate customers should only be minimally impacted, if at all. Licenses acquired by customers through one of Microsoft’s volume licensing programs will not require activation.

Product activation is an invasion of privacy.

Microsoft absolutely respects the privacy of its customers and does not ask for any personally identifiable information to activate a product. Product Activation is completely anonymous.

So it’s anonymous, but you are still requiring information about the make and model of my PC.

To ensure the end user’s privacy, Microsoft uses a one-way mathematical algorithm to create the hardware hash used by Product Activation to create the Installation ID. Once created, the hash information cannot be calculated back to its original values. Hardware information is sent through the algorithm in the software on the PC — not at Microsoft — to create the hash. The raw hardware information is not known or sent to Microsoft. Ensuring end user privacy is a
No. 1 design goal for Microsoft with Product Activation.

Users must have Internet connectivity to activate.

Product Activation provides two methods to activate: Internet and telephone. The Internet method requires that the PC be able to make a connection to the Internet. The telephone method requires the user to provide information to a customer service representative over the telephone.

Counterfeiters are the real piracy problem.

Software piracy comes in many different forms, some more widely known than others. Each type of piracy is unique and often requires unique protection methods. Counterfeiting is a common form of piracy. Others include hard disk loading, Internet pirating and casual copying, or softlifting. Casual copying is the sharing of software between people in a way that infringes on the software’s EULA. An example of casual copying is if someone were to get a copy of Office XP and load it on his or her PC, then share it with a second person who loaded it on his or her PC, then share it with a third person who loaded it on his or her PC, and so on. This form of piracy is very prevalent and has been estimated by some industry trade groups to account for a staggering 50 percent of the economic losses due to piracy. It is this form of piracy, casual copying, that Microsoft is primarily looking to reduce with Product Activation.

Microsoft is addressing the other forms of piracy with other initiatives such as Certificates of Authenticity (COA) that accompany new PCs with genuine licenses, edge-to-edge holograms, educational campaigns and, as needed, enforcement efforts.

Activation is difficult to complete.

Product Activation is actually very simple to complete. It requires just a few mouse clicks for those with Internet connectivity. For those who must activate over the telephone, the process with a customer service representative can be completed in just a couple of minutes. Most users’ response is "that’s it?"

Product Activation keeps users from changing or upgrading their hardware.

Not true at all. Users can change or upgrade their hardware. One of the forms of piracy that Product Activation guards against is hard disk imaging. Not all forms of hard disk imaging are illegal. In the case where a pirate copies data from one PC hard drive to another to illegally run the software on two PCs, Product Activation stops that by forcing the copied software to be reactivated. It does so by comparing the hardware on which it was activated to the hardware on which it is now being booted. If the hardware is substantially different, then reactivation is required. If it is the same or similar, then the software will continue to work. Those who upgrade their PC’s hardware substantially may be asked to reactivate. Reactivation for this reason is easy and can be completed by contacting Microsoft to obtain another confirmation ID.

Product Activation changes the way Microsoft software is licensed.

The underlying principles of Microsoft’s software licenses have not changed. Microsoft’s end user license agreements have always stipulated the number of PCs that software can be installed on. Product Activation does not change that.

Product Activation has already been cracked, or at least it will be cracked very quickly, and therefore is of no anti-piracy benefit.

Actually, Product Activation has yet to be cracked. The so-called "crack" now being passed around the Internet contains a set of instructions for setting a registry key that disables activation. Microsoft made the existence of this registry key public to its technical beta testers back in early February telling them where it was and how to set it to disable activation, and included it as a testing tool.

Still, the intellectual property protection arena is a cat-and-mouse game. All intellectual property protection technologies will be cracked at some point — it’s just a matter of time. The measure of success is not completely stopping software piracy, which is probably an unattainable goal. Success is more likely to be measured in increased awareness of the terms of the license agreement and increased license compliance.

Internet Explorer and Windows 2000 will begin requiring activation as well.

Not true. Internet Explorer 6 does not require activation or activation of the operating system it has been installed on. Some Internet reports have suggested that; however, the registry key detailed in those reports is created by a separate software installation. The registry key is created by the installation of the Terminal Services client software and a connection to a Windows 2000 terminal server; it facilitates the licensing of Terminal Services.