Posted on 01/05/2002 11:55:52 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
Take the plank out of your reformation eye before removing the speck from our Roman eyes.
They go to Heaven.
It's a tough question, but I think it can be effectively reasoned out with scripture, even though there is no specific statement that says that all innocent children go to heaven, followed by a defining of that innocence.
First of all, Jesus said "suffer the little children to come unto Me, for such is the kingdom of heaven." He also said that unless we become like children, we'll have trouble entering that same kingdom. Since he used the literal example of the kids the diciples were trying to shoo away, I take this in a literal sense to some extent as well as the obvious spiritual. Especially if you consider the obvious level of love that God has for children, speaking of it often in the Old and New Testaments. Anyway, what He meant was that their innocent, trusting, unconditional "I believe whatever you tell me" hearts of faith are exactly what God wants from us.
Also, and this is a pretty broad example, so be kind. :) But it has always struck me that when God disallowed the men of Israel to enter Canaan after fearing the Canaanites described by the scouts' report, He drew the line at the age of 19. Any man over that age had to stay behind. Now, I don't think that all men under the age of 19 are innocent - hardly - but I think this example is an interesting point to ponder, that God did not consider those young men party to their elders' sin.
With specific regard to abortion, God tells Jeremiah that before he was born, God had plans for him. In Psalm 139, which happens to be my favorite, David says that God knew all about him in the womb, that He formed all his parts, knew all his days before any were lived. In my opinion, God of course then knows which babies will never make it out of the womb, and a just and loving God cannot send those souls to hell. Also, when David's son by Bathsheba dies after only living a few days, David says that one day he will go to him. David knows that he and his son will be reunited one day -
2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Just some quick references from my random thoughts, there are certainly more, but I believe wholeheartedly that a strong scriptural argument can be made for the acceptance of babies and small children.
i'll put ya' on my ping list, but I gotta warn ya', most of my pings are for Culture of Life issues, especially regarding the abortion-breast cancer link, the birth control pill- breast cancer link, and the fact that the Culture of Death (Contraception/Abortion/homosexuality/euthanasia) in this country is related to this idea:
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Why discuss birth control on a conservative news forum???
The biggest challenge to conservatism is championing the Culture of Life in a society and political climate in large part obsessed with the Culture of Death. If we lose the fight for the Culture of Life, the Republic is lost. Any other political debate is moot.
To understand the roots of the acceptance of many facets of the Culture of Death, one must grasp recent historical developments in Christianity.
As pointed out directly above, in 1930 mainstream "Bible only" protestantism fell away from the constant teaching of Christianity regarding contraception. Christianity always taught contraception was intrinsically evil. (This was ALL Christians, for ALL time, not just Catholics. The point isn't even debatable.)
This change in teaching on contraception is the very root cause of the eventual legalization of abortion.
Abortion follows the acceptance of contraceptive mentality as night follows day. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the US Supreme Court decision that confirmed Roe v. Wade [U.S. decision to permit abortions] stated "in some critical respects, abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception... for two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail." As Professor Janet Smith points out, "The Supreme Court decision has made completely unnecessary, any efforts to "expose" what is really behind the attachment of the modern age to abortion. As the Supreme Court candidly states, we need abortion so that we can continue our contraceptive lifestyles."
Furthermore, because mainstream protestantism and "Bible Christianity" in general condones non-procreative contraceptive sex, they have no moral authority upon which to preach against non-procreative homosexual sex, as homosexual "Christian" theologians are pointing out even today.
Thus the homosexual agenda juggernaut is also directly a result of the failure of "Bible Christianity" on the birth control issue, as well as the reluctance of the Catholic hierarchy and priesthood to promote Humanae Vitae and the Church's true teachings on sexuality in general. And if you can kill the innocent baby in the womb, why not granny in the nursing home? Euthanasia too is becoming widespread, as a result of the acceptance of abortion, which came from this change in moral teachings regarding, and acceptance of, the contraceptive mentality among Christian churches.
The widespread acceptance in American culture of the culture of death --abortion, contraception, homosexuality, euthanasia-- lies squarely on the backs of those who caved in on these life issues several decades ago.
Until Christianity turns back from this apostacy, respect for human life from conception til natural death, the hallmark of any true political conservatism, will continue to erode.
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(I was wondering how I'd get that into this
Anyway, given what I see to be the roots of abortion/ the homosexual agenda, can anybody wonder why I continue to try to bring good Christian folk home to Rome???
Yes, there are certainly a few verses that can be used to indicate a chance of losing one's salvation. And there are a number which can be used to indicate that it is impossible to lose one's salvation.
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Anyway, yours and my references aside, because I'm not wholly sold to either (I think if it can be lost, it's quite tough, and one need not worry daily that it is about to slip through one's hands - if we are worried, we are in no danger in the first place, imo), I have a sort of pseudo-scientific question for you to make it even more confusing. :)
Hopefully we can agree that God exists outside our time and space. This of course allows for the accuracy of Biblical prophecy and helps us understand how He alone knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10). If this is the case, and salvation can be lost, then from God's perspective - outside of time - was that person ever saved at all?
Think about it. If God exists outside our time, then from His perspective, that person was never saved at all. A place was never reserved for him in heaven, because there is no realtime there that would allow for his salvation to once be in place and then be displaced. Interesting scenario, what do you think?
Agrace!!! Good summary of the basis of many of the things you claim Catholics believe are not scriptural,
i.e., GOD gave us a brain AND the HOLY SPIRIT, and the promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail, and Scripture, and promised the Holy Spirit would lead us to all Truth, and that not all things are recorded in scripture...
it can be effectively reasoned out with scripture,[under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by the authority Christ bestowed on Peter and His church] even though there is no specific statement that says
all the things you claim we believe are unscriptural...
Thanks for helping us out here by supporting foundational Catholic conceptions of scriptural exegesis united with Tradition.
I get up in the morning, look in the mirror, and realize that I can't hide these movie star good lucks from the world, 'twould be cruel.
I agree with that 100%. Yet, consider this: in the Roman Catholic Church, just as much as in many Protestant denominations, there are those who wear the robes and yet blaspheme them, by directly or indirectly collaborating with the aforementioned CoD.
OK, fine, another time then.
Have a good week.
...though arguably one is functionally equivalent to the other.
So you are saying that your church has never been and can not be corrupted? In light of the history of the Catholic church, that seems a pretty bold statement doens't it?
You're going to have to try a different approach. How about real charity, kindness, patience. Start not by attacking our faith but expounding your own. Forget about how bad Catholicism is. To Catholics that just sounds mean, and will drive them away, not convert them. Put on the love of Christ, be patient, kind, do not insult or denigrate, and then you will start seeing the results you desire (if in addition you preach TRUTH.)
I don't think mosts Prots need to post articles of what men say to prove their faith and beliefs. This seems to be a Catholic habit.
I constantly see articles on FR showing how many have converted to Catholicism, apparitions that back their claims,statues weeping, apologists with the latest insight, and anything else that can be thrown in the face of non-catholics to prove some foolish point.
I think if you want to post these "in your face" articles you should be ready to defend them.
It seems the only defense most catholics can come up with is calling anyone who disagrees with them a Catholic-basher. This is really childish and proves the Prots point.
You can't have it both ways. Either the Church is Christ's body, which He protects from error, or it is not. If the Church fell into error, Christ lied when He said, "I will be with you always," and "what you hold bound on earth will be held bound in Heaven," and (most importantly) "The gates of Hell shall never prevail against you."
If you believe Christ lied and Rome introduced error, then your entire Christian belief system is schizophrenic. You should be an agnostic or an atheist if you honestly believe Christ allowed His own Church, which He instituted and promised to protect, to fall into error.
The Church is the Body of Christ, with Him as its Head. If the Body is sick (in error) the Head (Christ) is sick.
Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, a disciple of John, a Christian writing around 110 ad, less than 80 years after the death of Christ, was very clear:
CHAPTER VII.--LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.
CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery [priests] as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
CHAPTER IX.--HONOUR THE BISHOP.
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does[in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for ye are worthy. Ye have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ[shall refresh] you. Ye have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while ye endure all things, ye shall attain unto Him.
This PROVES the early Church, even during the life of the personal disciples of the apostles, was
1)Sacramental (The Holy Eucharist IS the Body of Christ) 2)Hierarchical 3)given authority by Christ Jesus 4)CATHOLIC
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