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To: Sci Fi Guy; Havoc; Prodigal Daughter; Thinkin' Gal; Jeremiah Jr
>>>You mentioned a guy named Scott Hofstee, who said that selling ministries implied a false teacher? That's a little off the wall (if I'm understanding you right.)  It simply does not fit the definition of a false teacher.  He (Hofstee) needs to provide a Biblical arguement to support that statement. (Having a prophecy come true is not proof, see Deut 13:1-3).

No, I think he is right and it is a prophecy that HAS COME TRUE as the fulness of the gentiles has come in and got is lopping off the branch of the apostate church which has fallen away.  Look at the degree of spiritual deafness in America!  It is like thick darkness that can be felt.  Do you see any ministry now days that doesn't have its hand out for money or for a love offering or a place to type in your credit card number?  Those are false!  They have gone for the gold, er...the Mammon, and He says you cannot serve two masters or you will love one and hate the other.  It is God or gold and they choose the latter, and like the song says, "the Father and Son hit the last train for the coast."  Bye, bye, Miss American Pie!

Pr 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

See also:  

for filthy lucre's sake...1Ti 3:3,8; Tit 1:7,11; 1Pe 5:2

make merchandise of you...and Isa 56:5-11; Jer 7:11; Ho 12:7-8; Mt 21:13; Mr 11:17; Ac 19:24-27; 1Ti 6:5; 2Pe 2:3,14-15

error of Balaam...2Pe 2:15; Jude 1:11; Re 2:14

>>>And didn't Paul talk about people preaching the gospel for selfish reasons. I believe that Paul said he was glad that the gospel was getting preached.

There are many gospels and many other Jesus' being preached today and the spirit of ecumenicism says they are all okay which is pluralism and the middle way about to be spewed out.  Jesus and his disciples said they are not all the same and that the way is narrow (difficult) that leads to eternal life.  Not all preaching is okay because the many on the broad way preach false gospels.  Jesus said rather that "this" gospel be preached.  We have contended firmly that is a gospel wherein He is the Head and His sheep hear His voice.  They follow Him in obedience because they love Him, know Him and are known by Him and His Father and look for the blessed hope of their salvation, THE END OF THEIR FAITH, not the beginning.  Truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

What is a Christian?

Who will be saved?

False and True Prophets

148 posted on 01/03/2002 8:17:19 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: Sci Fi Guy
Correction: got God is lopping
174 posted on 01/03/2002 10:55:44 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep
I'm glad that you responded to my last post. I noticed that you expanded your position,. Do you see any ministry now days that doesn't have its hand out for money....Those are false! We are getting off topic, But I'll stand my definition that a false teacher is one who lies or teaches false doctrine.

I took the time to read many of the verses you cited. But a Biblical argument must be in context and address the issue either directly or indirectly. For example Proverbs 23:23 the verse about buying truth, and not selling it is figurative language instructing us to value Truth, Wisdom, instruction, and Understanding. It doesnt address(directly or indirectly) the idea that selling books or tapes makes a minister a false teacher. If you disagree then explain how we buy the truth? (i.e. if the word "sell" is to be taked in a non-figuratively, then we must do the same with the "buy".)

I Tim 3:3 says a minister should not be a lover of money. No disagreement there. But does it mean that a pastor cannot ask for money? or sell a book or tape? Or does in mean that if a pastor is greedy it invalidate his teachings

Titus 1:7,11 1 Tim 6:5, 2 Pet 2:3. These verses must be placed in context. Titus 1:7-11, 1 Tim 6:3-5, 2 Pet 2:1-3, All of these passages talk about teachers who lie and teach falsely out of greed. These passges don't say all greed pastors are false teachers. It says they are false teachers because they lie and teach falsely. Greed is why they do it.

I wish you had responded to the Bible Verses I mentioned. Deut 13:1-3 says that God will test us by allowing "certain Prophets" to make predictions that come true. These "Prophets" call the people away from God to a false(idol)worship. God wants to know if we love Him enough to follow his Word, even in defiance of so-called prophets. If you love God(and I assume you do) you will not blindly follow someone because they made a prophecy that came true.(I'm not implying that you do.)

I mention a passage where Paul is grateful for bad pastors. I looked it up. It is Phil 1:15-19, Paul says he is glad for pastors who preach out of selfish ambition, because the gospel is being preached. This is important because it tells us sound teaching is good, regardless of the teacher's motivation.

I think that we could agree that there are greedy pastors, but asking for money does not automaticly make someone greedy. The Salvation Army asks for money. They even take collections in front of stores. Yet their ministers only earn 13,000 a year. I wouldn't call them greedy.

Since it's late this will be my last post on this topic.

175 posted on 01/03/2002 11:00:44 PM PST by Sci Fi Guy
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