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To: st.smith
To change the almost ten-century old clerical requirement of celibacy because of short-term, largely phony vocations crisis would be worse.

It's not a requirement.

Episcopalian and Lutheran men have converted to Catholicism, been ordained priests, and remained married.

If, as notwithstanding suggests, half the parishes are closed, and catholics are forced to drive miles to remote parishes, the faithful will have something to say about it, you can be sure.

Again, celibacy is not integral to the priesthood. If it were, we'd send the Episcopalian converts packing tomorrow.

And if the vocation crisis is phony, why are we welcoming these men into the Catholic Church and allowing them to practice?

191 posted on 01/06/2002 7:11:55 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Any "crisis" has been nipped in the bud. Vocations boom wherever truth is taught unapologetically. We were on a path to a crisis - but it is going to end up as a temporary difficulty. Not a crisis at all.

The outreach to Episcopalians, for example, has more to do with fostering unity than it does with trying to increase the number of priests. Just look at the numbers of married convert priests - too low to even register on the radar.

As to the laity having a say: if theings were to reach the crisis stage, there would be a sudden wave of vocations spawned by catholics who realize they truly need to make the choice of the priesthood attractive to young people. It is all lip service now for many. How many of your parish acquaintances with only one son would be overjoyed to find their son wanted to be a priest? Most such catholics would be very disappointed at such a choice. Lay people such as this ought not be given much credence when it comes to having a say about parish closings or vocations concerns.

192 posted on 01/06/2002 7:23:37 PM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: sinkspur
Celibacy is certainly unneccessary.

But:

In our society, sex-as-recreation is seen as the ultimate goal, and "families" (a partner and one child) are actually utilitarian accoutrements more than organic cells of society or "domestic churches". Celibacy is a bold statement for Christ and against these terribly skewed though predominant cultural views. The sign of contradiction that a celibate priesthood provides is much needed and will be for some time.

193 posted on 01/06/2002 7:32:22 PM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: sinkspur
It's not a requirement. Episcopalian and Lutheran men have converted to Catholicism, been ordained priests, and remained married.

Of course it is a requirement- it is a requirement for anyone who is not an Episcopalian or Lutheran clergyman. That means for 99 point something percent of men considering the priesthood it is a requirement.

If, as notwithstanding suggests, half the parishes are closed, and catholics are forced to drive miles to remote parishes, the faithful will have something to say about it, you can be sure.

I think it would be a rather healthy consequence if it comes to that. Furthermore the 'faithful'- I assume you are referring to the laity- are not owed some specific amount of access to the sacraments. They are available as possible. Our failure as a nation to produce priests- should not require the Universal Church- including many nations where there is no vocations crisis to alter the structure of the priesthood.

Again, celibacy is not integral to the priesthood. If it were, we'd send the Episcopalian converts packing tomorrow.

No, it's not integral. But would you not agree that it is preferable?

And if the vocation crisis is phony, why are we welcoming these men into the Catholic Church and allowing them to practice?

Because even if there were no vocations crisis it could be licit to admit these men. However, you are making a mountain out of a molehill- how many of these married men are becoming priests? Hardly any at all.

I am not denying that there is a shortage of vocations- there is. What I am saying is there is a true path to healing this problem that is not being taken- instead we talk about ways in which we can patch up the situation. However if the Church does truly renew itself it doesn't matter how many patches we come up with- they will be useless .

194 posted on 01/06/2002 7:32:33 PM PST by st.smith
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