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To: Mean Spirited Conservative
Every one of those pitchers was a better pitcher because Ozzie Smith was out there. That's a lot of pitchers. That's a lot of balls that didn't get through. That's a lot of doubleplays he started.

Whoa, horsie. Let's have some perspective on that one, bearing in mind that it does not cheapen the argument on behalf of The Wiz: the Cardinal pitching staffs of Ozzie Smith's years, especially those managed by Whitey Herzog, were predominantly ground ball pitchers in the first place, and you could have put Eddie Gaedel at shortstop on a Whitey Herzog team (and there are those who argue that, while the White Rat managed the Royals in the 1970s, they damn near did have Eddie Gaedel out there, only his name was Freddie Patek - who was an above average player most of his career, if not quite a Hall of Famer) and gotten him a host of double-play balls. Herzog prized pitchers who got ground balls or line drives over pitchers who were customarily flyball pitchers; it was the exception rather than a rule for a Royals or Cardinals staff under his jurisdiction to include more than one predominantly flyball pitcher.

This doesn't diminish Ozzie Smith by any means; the man remains the greatest defencive shortstop of them all and he has earned his ticket to Cooperstown. And he did start a lot of double plays - but so did Tommy Herr, his second baseman for most of his best seasons in St. Louis. It came with the territory. But a) starting double plays is at best half an infielder's job, with cutting off base hits the other and perhaps more critical half of it (I think they call this range factor, though it might be interesting as well, assuming anyone has the patience to do it, to measure the ratio of an infielder's assists to base hits allowed, not to mention the ratio of his double plays begun against baserunners he failed directly to keep off base); and, b) anyone who says the Cardinal pitchers were better pitchers because of Ozzie Smith behind him (as opposed to saying they were better pitchers with him behind them, which is quite different) simply did not really watch the Cardinals in the prime of Smith's years with the team, and especially when Herzog was their manager.
97 posted on 01/01/2002 7:09:56 PM PST by BluesDuke
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To: BluesDuke
Whitey Herzog says you're wrong. Here's what he says in an article written by USA TODAY's Hal Bodley, published January 3:

Whitey Herzog, who managed Smith for nine of Ozzie's 15 seasons with the St. Louis Cardinals, pooh-poohs the defense-only tag. "I always said he saved a hundred runs every year," Herzog says. "What difference does it make whether you save 'em or drive 'em in?"

I think Whitey would also say, if asked, that Smith did in fact get to more balls than other shortstops, which is why he traded for him in the first place. Herzog actually made his pitching staff better before even assembling the pitching staff. He did this by acquiring Smith, moving Ken Oberkfell from second base to third, and promoting Tommy Herr and making him the starting second baseman. Yes, Herzog wanted ground ball pitchers, but he needed a superior infield in place in order to field all of those ground balls. You wouldn't put that infield in place and then acquire/develope a bunch of flyball pitchers, would you? It's self evident.

You use Kansas City to support your point, but those Royals teams were really a poor example. In fact, they taught Herzog the inadequacies that had to be addressed immediately in St. Louis, where owner Gussie Busch gave Whitey the wherewithall and authority to build a club the way the Kaufmans wouldn't allow him to in KC. In Kansas City Herzog had one superior defensive infielder. Frank White. Fred Patek was adequate, but lacked not only the arm to play as deep as Smith played (thereby cutting off more grounders and turning them into DP's and force outs), but also did not possess the range. A case could be made that Patek's backup U.L. Washington was just as good at getting to the ball as Patek. But Patek turned the doubleplay much better, and believe it or not, hit better (situationally) than Washington, so Washington rode the bench. And George Brett, the great hitter, averaged roughly 25 errors at third base, even in his prime.
107 posted on 01/07/2002 10:25:19 AM PST by Mean Spirited Conservative
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