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To: volchef
The writer makes the assumption that there is overwhelming evidence supporting evolution, which there is NOT!!!

The really big lie which is implicit in all evolutionist arguments which I ever see is that the dialectic is between evolution and religion. It isn't; the dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. To be an evolutionist, you have to be willing to take everything we know about modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic, and flush them down the toilet.

Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some axpect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, Muhammed et. al.

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter F (Fornicator), D (Democrat), W (whatever), or I (for IDIOT), you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the former choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God hates IDIOTS, too!

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

1. It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could see or hear them, they wouldn't be witches...) The best example of that sort of logic in fact that there ever was was Michael O'Donahue's parody of the Connecticut Yankee (New York Yankee in King Arthur's Court) which showed Reggie looking for a low outside fastball and then getting beaned cold by a high inside one, the people feeling Reggie's wrist for pulse, and Reggie back in Camelot, where they had him bound hand and foot. Some guy was shouting "Damned if e ain't black from ead to foot, if that ain't witchcraft I never saw it!!!", everybody was yelling "Witchcraft Trial!, Witchcraft Trial!!", and they were building a scaffold. Reggie looks at King Arthur and says "Hey man, isn't that just a tad premature, I mean we haven't even had the TRIAL yet!", and Arthur replies "You don't seem to understand, son, the hanging IS the trial; if you survive that, that means you're a witch and we gotta burn ya!!!" Again, that's precisely the sort of logic which goes into Gould's variant of evolutionism, Punk-eek.

2. PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

5. For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.

The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:

The don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"

They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!

Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

106 posted on 12/29/2001 8:28:08 PM PST by medved
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To: medved

Some useful references:

Talk.origins/Sci.Bio.Evolution Realities

(because most of the evoglop links typically posted on such discussions originate with talk.origins...)

Major Scientific Problems with Evolution

Many Experts Quoted on FUBAR State of Evolution

(Steve Jackson's Web Site)

Social Darwinism, Naziism, Communism, Darwinism Roots etc.

Creation and Intelligent Design Links

Catastrophism

Intelligent Versions of Biogenesis etc.


111 posted on 12/29/2001 8:33:07 PM PST by medved
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To: medved
Great summary of some of the improbabilities with evolution. Do you mind if I "pile on"?

I like to maintain an open mind on evolution. Here's the problems it has that it must solve to convince me:

  1. There is no known method by which life comes from non-life. People can't produce life by trying in a laboratory. The known conditions of the earth at the time of the first appearance of life are not conducive to the creation of life. (I'm an old earth/universe creationist, BTW)
  2. There is no known method to produce the genetic drift or mutations at the rate required to produce new families of animals/plants/etc. Chemical and radiological means produce inferior mutations, as shown by countless generations of fruit flies. No new family of animals has arisen in 65 million years.
  3. There is not enought time in the fossil record for the genetic drift to have occured that is necessary.
  4. We cannot produce evolution in laboratories using short lived species under stress. Why should it happen in nature?
  5. The fossil record shows the sudden appearance of new families and species, which is consistent with creation, but not with evolution.

In summary, there is no method to start life, no means to make beneficial mutations, no evidence it happened, and no laboratory experiments to show it can happen.

I personally believe speciation is "built in" capability of the "kinds" mentioned in Genesis 1. This accounts for the genetic variation we have observed in nature and through human breeding programs. But although we have Great Danes and Mexican Hairless from wolves, they're still dogs.

I think early earth creationists biggest failing is their lack of understanding of the Bible. Genesis 1 is a poem or a song format, very beautifully and succienctly written. It speaks of the six days of creation, but leaves out many details. Verses 1 and 2 are ambiguous about the time between the creation of the earth and the time of the earth being without form and void. I feel verses 2 onward speak of the recreation of the earth after a disaster, rather than the original creation.

The idea of a "mental virus" is also called a "meme"-- a contagious idea. One such is the idea of a creation without a Creator. A universe that came from nothing. Laws without a law giver. It's very popular with those who do not want to believe in a Supreme Being, and has been around since the time of the Greeks (2600 years) and before.

124 posted on 12/29/2001 9:27:28 PM PST by Forgiven_Sinner
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To: medved
Excellent Post! Defending the theory of evolution requires an ever increasing number of mind-bending assumptions. Isn't this the critisism leveled at Creation Science?

Many are fearful to abandon the theory of evolution no matter how flawed. To do so would force them to admit that science is an insufficient tool to describe our universe. This is a scary bridge for someone whose whole belief system is that man is self-sufficient and given time and technology will discover the answers to all of life's mysteries.

BTW since humans are the climax community on earth thus far, does it not seem likely that the chimpanzes, dolphins, or something should have at least discovered fire by now? :)

142 posted on 12/29/2001 11:09:56 PM PST by Kowdawg
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To: medved
There is one very large problem with all arguments against any means by which the universe now is what it is. However the universe became what it is today, the probability of its happening is exactly one, that is, unity.

How do I know?

It happenend!

Pobability actually says nothing about how the universe and all there is in it came to be. With an infinite amount of time, eventually, all possibilities can atually happen, even God, so.......

However, evolution probably presents some logical impossibilities, which could not happen in any amount of time.

Hank

149 posted on 12/30/2001 3:43:19 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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