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Andrew Sullivan: Spreading the greater lie about Israel
The Sunday Times ^ | December 23, 2001 | Andrew Sullivan

Posted on 12/25/2001 4:08:58 PM PST by CrossCheck

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To: College Repub
Don't you think Israel deserves a few million more (than Egypt)?

We give Egypt $2 billion a year...and I object to this hand-out, too. But Israel doesn't get a few million more, Israel gets a few billion more...all told, about $5 billion per year when everything is lumped in together. But why does Israel "deserve" more...or anything at all?

Incidently, do you know why we give Egypt $2 billion per year? At Camp David, we had to "buy" the "peace treaty" between those two, because Egypt would lose its hand-out from our great ally Saudi Arabia. (But at least Saudi Arabia's so-called friendship is somewhat free -- we just pay for the oil).

So, if you really look at it, we have to pay Israel $5 billion per year, and then because of Israel we have to shell out another $2 billion to Egypt. It's ridiculous, especially when Bush's tax cut came to an average of $300 per tax payer.

121 posted on 12/25/2001 8:11:47 PM PST by dlt
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To: Sabramerican
Snidely, I do care. I care about ME AND MINE. Thats what I've been saying. You don't care about me and mine and I've marked that.
122 posted on 12/25/2001 8:13:07 PM PST by LoisHunt
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To: Sabramerican
I'm sorry but it's not Christmas if you don't mention Pollard, the Liberty and Mark Rich.

You forgot a few, but happy new year anyway.

123 posted on 12/25/2001 8:15:13 PM PST by dlt
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To: LoisHunt
You don't care about me

Don't cry.

124 posted on 12/25/2001 8:15:39 PM PST by Sabramerican
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Comment #125 Removed by Moderator

To: Alouette
"Israel sounds more like a theocracy to me."

[[[ Being a deep thinker, can you share with us one fact about Israel that gets you to that conclusion.? ]]]

Government offices are closed on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

Well if closing government offices on a religious holiday makes a nation a theocracy, then Cuba is the only non-theocracy in the western hemisphere. Indeed, the only non-theocracies (and presumambly on Aloutte's list of preferred governments) would be Cuba, China, Viet Nam and North Korea.

126 posted on 12/25/2001 8:17:49 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: dlt
Eggzactly and then factor that in with the poster above who thinks we need to support Israel because its a "democracy" but the Camp David accords have resulted in Mubarak's being President for 20 years. And thats another grievance they hold as justification to kill us; bin Laden's right hand man, Zawahiri, is Egyptian and his big beef is the Egyptian government.
127 posted on 12/25/2001 8:18:12 PM PST by LoisHunt
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To: Sabramerican
"They taste good with onions"- Moshe, Chief Chef, Tel Aviv Missada

LOL. Now that's funny! Are you talking about onions with bagels or palestinians?

128 posted on 12/25/2001 8:18:15 PM PST by dlt
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To: dlt
When we deal with any other country, except Israel, it is from a perspective of what is good for our national interest.

Maybe we want a reliable ally close to our oil supplies in the Middle East.

129 posted on 12/25/2001 8:18:31 PM PST by FITZ
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To: LoisHunt
You're incoherent.

I support the U.S. fighting, and yes, U.S. soldiers DYING so that our freedom will endure. If you think appeasing bullies is a way out of that, then you're sadly mistaken. Fortunately, most Americans don't make that mistake, and the rest of us will save your cowardly butt (and, no, we don't expect to be thanked, we expect to be criticized every step of the way.)

"A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

130 posted on 12/25/2001 8:20:22 PM PST by walden
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To: dlt
And did Britain come whining to Congress, insisting that we pay for their war?
They came and asked for our help, just as Israel does when they buy our weapons. A small price to pay to support the only democracy in the area.

While -- at the same time -- Britain eavesdropped on our elected officials, stole military and technological secrets and then sold them to the the USSR and China?
Hello anybody home? Welcome to the real world, EVERYBODY spys on EVERYBODY, You don't think that the SIS dorsen't spy on us and the CIA doesn't spy on the Brits? As to Israel selling our secrets to other countries I have never and will never say that they are angels, or that they always are right. Just that they have the right to exist, something are large part of the world disagrees with.

131 posted on 12/25/2001 8:22:57 PM PST by Valin
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To: cookcounty
If Jews from Russia have a "right of return" to a country their ancestors haven't lived in for many centuries but Muslims who lived on that land in their own lifetimes can't live there any more, thats a theocracy. I mean, what other justification is there but religion? Don't voting rights differ, too?
132 posted on 12/25/2001 8:23:17 PM PST by LoisHunt
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To: dlt
Are you talking about...

A "quote", even a made up one, can be interpreted in different ways? Checkmate.

133 posted on 12/25/2001 8:24:35 PM PST by Sabramerican
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To: walden
You go fight. But fight over there, not here. Don't act like you're doing me a favor to sacrifice my safety for your egomania.
134 posted on 12/25/2001 8:25:03 PM PST by LoisHunt
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To: LoisHunt
What a small little selfish world you live in. As long as I've got personal peace and prosperity that's all I care about. As I said before even if Israel disappeared tomorrow Hamas, osama hasbin lada and their ilk would STILL hate us and wish to see us and the rest of the west destroyed.
135 posted on 12/25/2001 8:32:13 PM PST by Valin
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To: dlt
"So, if you really look at it, we have to pay Israel $5 billion per year, and then because of Israel we have to shell out another $2 billion to Egypt. It's ridiculous, especially when Bush's tax cut came to an average of $300 per tax payer."

Ha. that's $300 in the first year. 5 years out its a LOT more.

AND $5 billion divided by 280 million people is about $18 per American, most of which is REQUIRED to be spent on products MANUFACTURED in the USA by AMERICAN workers.

Furthermore, these funds act as seed money. If Israel spends a billion on F-15's, are they going to switch, after spending their aid money, to Dassault products? NO, they keep spending their own cash on US-manufactured systems, because they've already started down that road. This aid costs the average American VERY LITTLE.

136 posted on 12/25/2001 8:32:18 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: Valin
Valin, I support Israel's right to exist. Very much so. But it should not be at the expense of U.S. national interests or its taxpayers.

In my opinion, if the U.S. wasn't playing the role of big Momma, bailing out Israel at every turn and turning a blind eye to what really goes on over there, then Israel would be forced to reach some true accommodation with the Palestinians.

I don't even think we should just "drop" Israel, but if we are going to keep dumping cash into that country, and sell weapeons to it indiscriminately, then we also have a responsibility to see that Israel behaves like a rational state and starts negotiating in good faith. This means Israel cannot have everything it wants, i.e., settlements need to go.

The best favor we could do for Israel is to force that country to grow up and eventually wean itself from the American taxpayer.

137 posted on 12/25/2001 8:32:45 PM PST by dlt
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To: cookcounty
Ha. that's $300 in the first year. 5 years out its a LOT more.

Hee, hee. Good point!

BTW, Israel is the only country exempt from the requirement that it must spend its money here in the US. It is allowed to spend its U.S. gift money with its own defense contractors within Israel itself.

138 posted on 12/25/2001 8:42:50 PM PST by dlt
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To: Valin
You don't know what bin Laden would be doing absent US support for Israel. And you're the selfish one risking my life and the lives of all Americans for your egomania. What good reason is there to risk our lives to maintain an Israel on that land? No one has come up with one rational reason yet on this thread. Every time something comes up in the Middle East, our government's big headache is keeping Israel under control lest they make matters even worse, so don't say they're an ally.
139 posted on 12/25/2001 8:48:09 PM PST by LoisHunt
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To: Valin
"The safety of individual citizens is NOT the #1 priority of your government."

Wow-- leftists really are used to a nanny-state, and just go BONKERS if they don't get it. The safety of individual citizens is not supposed to be the #1 priority of the government-- I believe that the oath goes "to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, from all enemies foreign and domestic." Or something like that. Sorry, sweetie, but no one is going to give you your own Marine to watch over you.

140 posted on 12/25/2001 8:51:38 PM PST by walden
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