[Texas Gal]

Thank you RnMomof7 CI wrote the following earlier today (it is not as eloquent as yours), but did not have time then to post it:

Genesis 1:1:   In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Colossians 1:16 :   For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
and then verse 17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

John 1:1  "the Word was God" [Jesus is the Word]

John 1: 3 : All things were made by him [Jesus]; and without him was not any thing made that was made

 

1) God created the heaven and the earth....All things were created by Jesus. Therefore Jesus is God.

2) Jesus is called "the mighty God, The everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6.  Therefore Jesus is God.

3) Jesus risked the wrath of the mob by calling himself "I am," [John 8:58] knowing they would realize he was saying he was God.  Therefore, either Jesus was a liar and a provocateur, or...

Jesus is God!

[Isaiah 9:6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.]

And eazdzit, are you NOT trying to say Jesus is human only, and not divine?  The Bible speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and I do not pretend to understand with my puny human understanding how God is one and yet God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. 

Isaiah 55:8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.   verse 9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.  With God all things are possible.  If you are bothered by what you perceive as a suggestion that Christ was created, just realize that if God had wanted Jesus Christ to be both created by Him and equal with Him, that is the way it would be, because with God all things are possible.  He has all power.  I do not think a careful study of the scripture supports the idea that Jesus was created.  But the scriptures do say Jesus was God.

Cheers.

[RnMomof7]

Those were not my words..they were the words of the church fathers and commentators from the past.

For anyone to think that they have "discovered" a "flaw " in the doctrine of the divinity of Christ is foolishness.

The heritics have always been with us :>)

[eazdzit]

Texas Gal you asked...."And eazdzit, are you NOT trying to say Jesus is human only, and not divine?"

I am not trying to say anything. I am trying to understand what the bible says, first of all. Then I can test different doctrine against that. I am one of the unchurched because so far none of the doctrine appear to be based on what I know of the bible.

TG you also stated...."The Bible speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and I do not pretend to understand with my puny human understanding how God is one and yet God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

This is not a big hang up with me. But until I have a better understanding of what the bible says, I can't say that I believe it is biblical..

So far I have been unable to get anyone to limit their discussion to what the bible says or doesn't say. I quote a verse from the bible and everyone tells me I'm wrong, I'm a heretic, I'm apostate, I'm brain dead and so on.

Then they proceed to ignore my basic question or present me a canned response that they are usually not prepared to discuss in any detail.

TG in your case I have invited you, and RnMomof7, to proceed because your info is sourced and/or well presented and not just a rant.

TG you also stated....."If you are bothered by what you perceive as a suggestion that Christ was created, just realize that if God had wanted Jesus Christ to be both created by Him and equal with Him, that is the way it would be, because with God all things are possible. He has all power."

I really appreciate this paragraph. It shows the strength in your conviction, which allows you to be open minded and to discuss the subject.

TG you also stated...."I do not think a careful study of the scripture supports the idea that Jesus was created."

When I read Col 1:15,Rev 3:14 and Proverbs 8:22-25 I see statements that indicate he was created. As you pointed out this would change very little, with regard to the gospel of Jesus and his propitiatory sacrifice. So I want to discuss those scriptures and study them. For instance is there or is there not contention over the source greek? If not, are the translations being challenged?

TG you also stated......"But the scriptures do say Jesus was God."

Yes some fall into that category. Some that you cited are questionable(ie. John 1:1), others like Cor 15:27-28(posted below), make it look otherwise. Based on the license being taken by many organizations in the translation process all scriptures that are in contention require scrutiny. For this reason and the potential for expending fruitless effort on a forum such as this, I am proceeding at my own pace.

Thank you and Cheers:^)

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.