Posted on 12/18/2001 4:10:48 PM PST by Pokey78
SOME years ago, an agnostic friend of mine married a Jewish woman who practised her faith seriously. He took instruction in Judaism and seemed quite likely to convert - but eventually did not. His chief reason was that he remained agnostic. But there was another obstacle that surprised even himself: "I found that I just did not want to give up Jesus."
In European culture, there is no getting away from Jesus even if you are agnostic. True, Nietzsche tried to reject him with detestation and contempt, calling him an "idiot", a purveyor of a sick, decadent view of the world. Nietzsche thought that the only figure in the New Testament who commands respect is Pontius Pilate. Yet the very ferocity of Nietzsche's onslaught on Jesus showed how strong in his heart was the image he wanted to destroy.
Now, what if my friend had married a Muslim? The interesting thing is that he could have kept Jesus - not the Jesus who was the Son of God, admittedly, and who was crucified, but certainly the Jesus who was Messiah and miracle worker, who conversed regularly with God, who was born of a virgin and who ascended into heaven.
Jesus is referred to quite often in the Koran, six times under the title "Messiah". Yet I had long supposed that the importance of Jesus as prophet in Muslim tradition was not much more than a matter of lip-service, something to which Muslims gave (to use Cardinal Newman's distinction) "notional" rather than "real" assent.
This impression was strengthened when I went to Ur of the Chaldees in southern Iraq and visited the so-called house of Abraham. It is only a few piles of sun-baked mud bricks, but you would have expected hundreds of Muslim Arabs to be visiting the birth-place of their Patriarch. I saw none - whereas the shrines of Muslim martyrs in Najaf and Kerbala were thronged. I assumed, therefore, that Jesus must be a marginal figure in the Muslim world.
How wrong this assumption was I have learnt by reading a fascinating and instructive book, The Muslim Jesus, by the Cambridge academic Tarif Khalidi. Professor Khalidi has brought together, from a vast range of sources, most of the stories, sayings and traditions of Jesus that are to be found in Muslim piety from the earliest times.
The Muslim Jesus is an ascetic, a man of voluntary poverty, humility and long-suffering. He literally turns the other cheek, allowing his face to be slapped twice in order to protect two of his disciples. He teaches the return of good for evil: "Jesus used to say, 'Charity does not mean doing good to him who does good to you . . . Charity means that you should do good to him who does you harm.' " He loves the poor and embraces poverty: "The day Jesus was raised to heaven, he left behind nothing but a woollen garment, a slingshot and two sandals." He preaches against attachment to worldly things: "Jesus said, `He who seeks worldly things is like the man who drinks sea water: the more he drinks, the more thirsty he becomes, until it kills him.' "
Many of the sayings of the Muslim Jesus are clearly derived from Biblical sources - "Place your treasures in heaven, for the heart of man is where his treasure is"; "Look at the birds coming and going! They neither reap nor plough, and God provides for them." Sometimes there is a sort of gloss on words of Jesus from the Gospel: "Oh disciples, do not cast pearls before swine, for the swine can do nothing with them . . . wisdom is more precious than pearls and whoever rejects wisdom is worse than a swine."
He is certainly a wonder-worker. He often raises the dead, and gives his disciples power to do the same. More than once he comes across a skull and restores it to life, on one occasion granting salvation to a person who had been damned. The skulls, like everyone else in these stories, address Jesus as "Spirit of God". Once he is even addressed as "Word of God".
I once had a conversation with members of Hizbollah in Beirut. One of them said this: "The greatness of Islam is that we combine Judaism and Christianity. Jesus freed enslaved hearts, he was able to release human feeling, to reveal a kingdom of peace. Jesus's realm was the realm of soul. Jesus is soul; Moses is mind, the mind of the legislator. In Islam, we interweave both."
This is certainly the Jesus of these stories - the Jesus of the mystical Sufi tradition. The great Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali actually called Jesus "Prophet of the heart".
The Muslim Jesus is not divine, but a humble servant of God. He was not crucified - Islam insists that the story of the killing of Jesus is false. He is, as it were, Jesus as he might have been without St Paul or St Augustine or the Council of Nicaea. He is not the cold figure of English Unitarianism, and he is less grand than the exalted human of the Arians. As you read these stories, what comes across most powerfully is that the Muslim Jesus is intensely loved. There is an element of St Francis of Assisi.
It is good to be reminded, especially now, of the intimate connections there have been between Islam and Christianity, and how close in spirit Muslim and Christian piety can come to each other. Curiously enough, the Muslim Jesus, shorn of all claims of divinity, could be more easily held on to by my agnostic friend than the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
One other thing: since Muslims deny the Crucifixion, their emphasis has been on the wonders surrounding the birth of "Jesus Son of Mary", born as his mother sat under a palm tree, and miraculously speaking from within the womb. There really is no reason why schools that put on Nativity plays, or anyone who wants to insist on the Christian meaning of Christmas, should fear that they may offend Muslim sensibilities, for Jesus really is shared by both faiths.
Then how can Islam say that Jesus was not divinty, truly God and truly man?
As to the Walther P99, I have the 9 mm. There are two things that I don't like about it:
1) It doesn't have a safety. Yes, it's a double-action which implies that the safety is built in, but I am more comfortable with a mechanical safety.
2) It's very light (mainly composite) and I have "loose wrists" which causes it to jam frequently. I never have that problem with the Beretta.
As for accuracy, it is fantastic. My husband has his own Walther P99 and has none of the jamming problems I have. The German police force uses them exclusively, so there is another positive testimonial.
Sorry for the confusion. I also had that problem with Lucius Cornelius Sulla's post. I really need to stay away from FR early in the morning or drink some heavy duty coffee. Thanks for your patience!
Clearly, they are speaking of "another Jesus":
2 Corinthians 11
3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
Do you have trouble reading, Woody?! I said the people who butcher Christians in the name of God are murderous heretics. Check out my post #194. We Muslims have more reason to hate the Wahabbi cult than anyone else, becuase they do to Islam what the Klan and the Inquisition did to Chritistianity-- that is utterly pervert it, making it unrecognizable to most Muslims.
As a Christian, I think you understand that it is the nature of evil to distort and twist goodness. Surely, here in the States, we see that kind of thing going on throughout the culture... We see the left expanding the meaning of compassion and diversity to mean respectability for homosexuals, and social acceptance of illegitimacy-- with all that implies for society. Over time, the goal of evil is to turn wrong to right, and condemn the good to riducle and mockery, turning civilization on its head and returning man to his animal nature. So, to many Muslims, this Wahabbi cult is an evil exposed, and we can only hope that it has been caught in time.
As far as the rest of your post, please understand that I state Islam's understanding of Christ merely to explain it to you-- this neither to change your mind on the nature of Jesus, nor to insult you.
What does it matter to you, if Muslim revere Jesus in their own way? He's still Jesus, and as I understand the Scripture, he'll be back to straighten out everybody's doctrine.
My best to you and yours.
Jesus was no ordinary man, or ordinary prophet.People sometimes miscontrue the usuage of the word prophet to mean some kind of pagan Greek oracle. To Muslims, a PROPHET is the Sign of God on Earth. We believe Jesus was "the Infallible, the Immaculate Prophet". Like Moses, God gave him power beyond all men.
As far as his divinity is concerned, Muslims are taught that Divinity is the sole province of God, the Almighty Creator (to you, God the Father) You know that part of the Old Testament, where it says something to the effect "For the Lord, thy God, is a jealous God" (and so on). Plus, there is the commandment "Thou shalt not have any gods before Me".
God's Word will not return unto Him void, but will accomplish that whereunto it is sent.
"The election hath obtained it, and the rest were hardened."
Think, man, think.
You know, it may not be your wrists at all. Jamming seems to be a problem that is consistent through the Walther family. The British Secret Service discarded the Walther because they believed this to be true. In fact, they claim that in only jams when you need it the most (in combat). I hear they actually switched to Berrettas in the 80s.
I myself have run into this from time to time. My cousin says that Walthers are cursed. (I don't believe him, but sometimes I worry...)I just love the feel of the Walther, and can't seem to give them up.
The entire quote was great, but I think Spurgeon's concluding remarks deserved a re-post:
You have so insulted us by denying the Godhead of Christ, you have charged us with so great a crime, that you cannot expect us to sit coolly down and blandly smile at the imputation. It matters not what a Man worships, if it be not God, he is an idolater. There is no distinction in principle between worship to a god of mud and a god of gold, nay further, there is no distinction between the worship of an onion and the worship of the sun, moon, and stars. These are alike idolatries. - C.H. Spurgeon from his sermon "[Jesus] Name -- THE Mighty God"
BUMP.
You didn't make it clear who were the heretics. I did read the clarification on what you meant.
What does it matter to you, if Muslim revere Jesus in their own way? He's still Jesus, and as I understand the Scripture, he'll be back to straighten out everybody's doctrine.
( From Psalm 119:136) Rivers of water run down from my eyes, because men will not fall at the feet of their Creator Christ Jesus and will utterly be destroyed!
Why Christians cannot be brothers with those who deny Jesus is the MIGHTY GOD
So you worshipped a snake, you believe in reincarnation, have the name of Savage Beast and you claim to follow Jesus. Strange indeed.
(This stuff is elementary Christianity. Of course, much of what passes for Christianity nowadays, even in "conservative" circles, is pretty trite stuff.)
(This stuff is elementary Christianity. Of course, much of what passes for Christianity nowadays, even in "conservative" circles, is pretty trite stuff.)
However, it is built on the foundation I accept certain premises that I do not.
No offense was meant.
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