ABOUT THOSE MINES

New York Post ^ | 12/28/01 | JOHN RINGO

[kattracks]

December 18, 2001 -- ALMOST lost in the story of the "Fall of Tora Bora" (which, it now seems, isn't as fallen as all that) were the first Marine casualties, to a land mine.

Land mines are small devices, placed on or near the ground, that when triggered, explode causing injury or death. They come in various "flavors" - from very small anti-personnel mines (called "toe-poppers"), designed to blow off half a foot, all the way up to anti-tank mines that can take out the most modern main battle tank.

[RadicalRik]

I have a question about mines:

I have read about the different types and how there are even ones that are undetectable by mine sweepers (being made of plastic or something). I have watched stories of the men who risk life and limb (and often lose some or all) to find, disarm and remove them. I believe that they are still doing this in Kuwait and all over the Balkans and now Afghanistan. You see these men laying or kneeling on the ground, carefully poking around with tools to unearth the mine so as to expose it for disarming.

My question for my education is why do they need to take this risk to remove these devices one by one like that?
For instance, at the airport in Afghanistan some marines were injured when they stepped on perhaps the plastic mines that had gone undetected.....
Could not several Caterpillar D10 bulldozers have their operator cabs armor plated (as well as other vulnerable areas) and with an extended pair of long arms push large, wide, spiked rollers out in front of them to roll over and pierce and churn up to set off all buried mines and booby traps? If the anti-tank mines take out the rollers, then just bring out some replacements, because they would be so far out front of the bulldozers that the machines would not be affected. Several could cover large areas like combines reaping large wheat fields. All of the non-operators (personnel outside of the armored cabs) would be well away from the reach of the explosions and flying shrapnel and those in the armored cabs would be well protected.
As for all those old aircraft and other things left behind that may be booby trapped with explosives, could not one of those tracked claw-picker like they are using at the WTC site also with armor plating shake or bash those pieces of equipment from the distance of the arm to set off any explosives safely?

I'm sorry if I sound ignorant or naive, but I have wondered about this land mine and booby trap problem for a long time, but don't know any military personnel with experience in this field to ask. So, I ask in a forum where intelligent people come and give intelligent, informed answers.....to the ignorant to remove all ignorance.

[Freedom of Speech Wins]

Johnny Walker should be used to test land spaces for mines.

[LJLucido]

Could not several Caterpillar D10 bulldozers have their operator cabs armor plated (as well as other vulnerable areas) and with an extended pair of long arms push large, wide, spiked rollers out in front of them to roll over and pierce and churn up to set off all buried mines and booby traps?

I've wondered the same thing. I will await responses from those more knowledgeable than me.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Large vehicles for de-mining anti-personnel mine fields are available commercially and have been used in such places a Mozambique. I saw one at a counter-mine conference in CA, it was about twice the size of a Chevy suburban, heavily armored, and could switch from rubber tires(for road transport) to sprung steel wheels. There was a video of it being used in an anti-personnel field, which was really something. One anti-tank mine in the mix though would ruin the crews day.

[DugwayDuke]

You're neither ignorant or naive. Your proposal would work just fine. In fact, the US Army, I don't have personal knowledge of the Marines, use an older model tank equiped with "mine plows" just as you described to clear mine fields. We used them in the Gulf War to open paths thru the Iraqi minefields. The major problem with them is that they are really good only for clearing small areas. You couldn't use them to clear the entire country for example. Since they could have been used around the airport and weren't this raises the question of why not? Well, for one thing tanks are heavy and I don't think the runways had been cleared to the extent to get the really heavy lift aircraft in. I imagine they will be sent there soon. Until then, it's watch where you walk.

BTW, in WWII, the Brits attached a cylinder to the front of special tanks. This cylinder was parallel to the front fenders of the tank and had numerous chains attached. These tanks were called "flails" and were used to clear mines by "flailing" at the ground.

[LJLucido]

One anti-tank mine in the mix though would ruin the crews day.

Why is a crew needed? I'm sure anti-mine vehicles could be designed to be operated by remote control. I'll bet Radio Shack would be glad to help with the technology.

[Doctor Stochastic]

I think you have a good point here. I'm sure that remote controlled vehicles are the way to go. Even an expensive vehicle is cheaper than the training of one mine removal expert.

Scottsdale (I think) Arizona used to used a tank-like vehicle for fire fighting. (They had lots of other goodies, 4" rather than 2½" hoses, quick-disconnects rather than screws, etc.) It was a private fire department.

[LJLucido]

Even an expensive vehicle is cheaper than the training of one mine removal expert.

Then again, the United "Mine" Workers might object to the loss of union jobs!

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

M2 Mine Roller

M2 Mine Plow (right)

[Doctor Stochastic]

"United" Mine Worker doesn't apply if one steps on a mine.

[patlaw_guy]

Now _that's_ an SUV!

[cibco]

But there's another problem: In many cases, mines were used as "terror weapons" rather than for real area denial. (Military axiom: "An obstacle that is not covered by fire is not an obstacle." So, when you place a minefield on a trail in the middle of nowhere, it's a terror weapon - not an obstacle.)

Sounds like a good explanation of what Jane Fonda's VC and NVA did. ;-(

You all are right but for some overlooked things. Some terrain has limitations for the operation of these vehicles and the main one is the number and availability of these assets. It is spelled out in unit Tables of Organization & Equipment. For example: Right now, in the present situation, you might have a use for say... 400 of these type of vehicles. In budget projections there was only enough money to finance say...ten of these. You have to also be able to finance other equipment that has a higher probability of use- like a tank or something.

If you had enough equipment around to cover every type of potential need the defense budget would be HUGE.

It is just a part of military planning. You have to utilize what you have to cover all contingencies. Equipment is just a part of the overall planning.

That's why, in this case, you just don't swoop in with the right numbers of proper equipment because it just isn't available. The only other choice would be to just "hang loose" while the new ones are being built and shipped to you. Not very practicle.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Other mine removal techniques have been tried. Machine gunning the area; bombing the area; driving pigs across the area; marching infantry across (Russian, Zhukov did point out that if they had just stayed put they would have been slaughtered by artillery); flooding. None of these replace the guy with the plastic knife.

[RadicalRik]

I agree. I guess that I have just been so impressed with the unmanned flying reconnaissance drones (armed and unarmed) that I have developed and attitude (for certain, specific dangerous tasks) of "why send a man to do a machine's job". Probably from having been a heavy equipment research and development mechanic.

The same goes for searching all of those caves. There could be all sorts of mines in the walkways and booby traps along the walls of those tunnels. Why not send a small remote-controlled armed, tracked crawler to precede all human troops into each cave tunnel?

I can envision a tracked vehicle with a couple mounted cameras, bright lights and two 12 gauge short-barreled shotguns (scatterguns really) that could clear a path into and tunnel. The wide tracks could even climb steps and roll over any mines, outrigger style antennas could snag any hidden trip-wires, the forward and side mounted mini-cams could examine the pathway forward and the walls on either side, and the scatterguns could take out any hostile it encounters.

Radio Shack or that guy that made the "IT" could make such a device. The device could even be carried in reasonable sized modules by troops and quickly assembled when they reach the cave to be explored.

[cibco]

Yep... in the end it comes back to basics. Radio Shack can only go so far. :0)