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Now watch out; you're about to join the ranks of Twodees, Billbears, Stand Watier and others. There is simply no way to twist Lincoln's words into a support for legal, unilateral state secession.

I'm simply quoting the historical record here. You may not want to hear or see that record at times, but that doesn't make it go away. As to the quote, you tell me then what Lincoln was talking about: "Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world"

Whatever credibility you have will go right out the window

Since when are you the distributer of credibility? If you are, may I ask where I should go to request the person that appointed you to that position reconsider his action? Cause you are no shining beacon of credibility yourself, as evidenced by your dishonest straw man debating tactics and intentional efforts to ignore the historical record when you don't like what it says.

if you continue to maintain that Lincoln supported legal, unilateral state secession.

Again, I'm simply quoting the historical record. You tell me what the following means: "Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world"

There is not one scintilla of evidence that he supported such an "unjust and absurd position", to use his very words that are readily available in the record.

That they may be, but my quoted words are themselves readily available in the record as well. So again, you tell me what Lincoln meant: "Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world"

Now, if we want to agree that 'secession' and 'revolution' are exact synonymns, then we are in agreement.

Did you not call it that yourself? You're the one that just completed a diatribe about how Lincoln navigated the country through the period when half of it was in revolt, as in a revolution.

The slave holder/secessionists went outside United States law to secede and attempt to establish a new nation.

Only so far as we maintain the position that a revolting people must first seek the consent of their government before deciding to revolt, and that is itself an absurd proposition. That being said, it is only accurate to note that the south did everything it legally could to facilitate its separation - it held elections on secession, it's elected officials voted in legislature to seceed etc.

If you agree with that position, then we have no conflict on this point

I'll agree that no, the nation did not have a law allowing part of it to revolt. I agree to that as it is an absurd proposition to suggest anything otherwise, for it defeats the whole purpose of a revolution.

From GOPcapitalist:

I said specifically: "The historical Lincoln was perfectly willing to tolerate slavery where it existed and only moved to end it as a war time strategy."

I said:

And that is simply not true by any fair reading of these events.

So it is hardly a straw man to quote you and then refute what you say, but it is getting sort of comical to cover the same ground over and over, but that is the nature of these vanities regarding poor old Lincoln.

Now, it is simply -not- fair to say that Lincoln only became interested in the slavery issue in 1861. He opposed slavery throughout his life.

But we can continue to spin this out as long as you like.

Walt

That's nice and all but (1) I really don't care what somebody else said about lincoln - I care what lincoln said himself and (2) what lincoln said himself throughout his political career clearly demonstrates him taking positions all over the radar screen with regards to slavery: from openly expressing an enthusiastic willingness to tolerate it in the form of a constitutional amendment (see lincoln's first inaugural) to abolishing all together it in certain places

Lincoln said himself on many occasions that his bedrock oposition was that slavery not be allowed in the territories. That is why the slave holders bolted.

Too, you can only sound like a fool to characterize Lincoln as "enthusiastic" on the proposed 13th amendment.

In Lincoln's famous letter to Horace Greeley in Augst 1862, he reiterated what he said over and over--that his personal wish was for all men everywhere to be free. You cannot get the record to support any other position on his part.

Walt

That's nice, but it still does not get you past the fact I have noted, namely that Lincoln ALSO undertook, before the war, governmental actions that would have perpetuated slavery. I have already given a solid example of what one of those actions was and need not go into repetition over it. If you do not know what I am referring to, you have only yourself to blame.

Well, that is simply not true. First of all, as I said before, the war was already on when Lincoln took the oath of office. It was in December, 1860 when South Carolina denounced Old Glory. And in January, State troops fired on the 'Star of the West'.

And it is simply false to say that Lincoln "undertook" government actions, since he was was not even in office prior to taking the oath, as would seem obvious. And even on that occasion, all he said was:

"I cannot be ignorant of the fact that many worthy and patriotic citizens are desirous of having the national Constitution amended. While I make no recommendation of amendments, I fully recognize the rightful authority of the people over the whole subject, to be exercised in either of the modes prescribed in the instrument itself; and I should, under existing circumstances, favor rather than oppose a fair opportunity being afforded the people to act upon it."

So you are trying to make a case in the record that simply cannot be made. But don't let me stop you from plunging ahead and wrecking your credibility.

Walt

It means what it says, of course. To shake off a government, not legislate a new one. I did hold off about you being disingenuous, but I won't do that any longer.

By no stretch of the imagination or any torturing of the English language can Lincoln have been said to support legal unilateral state secession. And no credible person will suggest that.

Walt