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Posted on 12/07/2001 5:01:33 AM PST by jackbill
Edited on 09/03/2002 4:49:36 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
PHILADELPHIA -- Early that Tuesday morning, terrorist suicide crews piloting hijacked jetliners killed an estimated 4,000 people from 86 countries.
Quickly labeled the Pearl Harbor of 2001, Sept. 11 has been acknowledged as a massive intelligence-gathering failure at the highest levels.
On that infamous Sunday morning 60 years ago today, against the Pearl Harbor naval base in Hawaii, Japanese Adm. Chuichi Nagumo's Operation Z carrier task force launched its attack that destroyed nearly 200 American aircraft, sank five battleships, severely damaged three cruisers, three destroyers and three auxiliaries, and killed 2,476 U.S. servicemen and civilians.
(Excerpt) Read more at sunspot.net ...
A. The United States was a neutral country prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. [Neutrality Act of 1939]
B. In January 1941 the ABD-1 (American, British, Dutch) military staff talks began - secret meeting kept from Congress.
C. August 1941, FDR and Churchill meet off the coast of Newfoundland, release the "Atlantic Charter" but also agree to (secretly) mutual support in the Pacific. [FDR agreed to go war if British or Dutch possessions, e.g., Singapore, Java, ... colonies] were threatened. CONGRESS WAS NOT MADE AWARE OF THIS COMMITMENT. CONGRESS DECLARES WAR IN THE UNITED STATES - NOT THE PRESIDENT] If the Japanese moved south of the Isthmus of Kra (100 degrees East, 10 degrees North), FDR committed the United States to armed aupport.
D. On December 4-5, 1941 the Japanese sent forces south of the isthmus. See the Congressional Hearings testimony from Cpt. Creighton and Lt. O'Dell
FDR ... stalled for time ... because he knew Pearl Harbor was about to be hit. Technically the United States was ALREADY at war - prior to Pearl Harbor.
As a second item ... the famous Kita messages ... the decoded and Washington-known messages that divided Pearl Harbor into five sub-areas [NOT OTHER INSTALLATION HAD THIS DEGREE OF OBSERVATION], light signals (to end Dec 6th), ... Kimmel nor Short were told ...
Finally for those that believe the United States entry into WWII was for world democracy ... read the terms and conditions that FDR settled for at Tehran and Yalta ... and Truman at Potsdam. How many millions disappeared under Stalin, ...
No. These attempts by FDR to enrage the Germans had not failed. They were ongoing. You are making an assumption in no way supported by the facts.
FDR saw the Germans as the real threat. His advisors told him that a 'United States of Europe' was an economic entity that we simply had to oppose. The possibility of such an entity came about because of the stunning collapse of France in 1940. No one dreamed of such a thing prior to it happening. The French had more men under arms than the Germans. They had more and better tanks; they had more artilery and of course the Maginot Line. With their stout British Allies they had more aircraft. Buit they failed to coordinate these assets; can't be bothered with new fangled inventions like the radio, you know. They dispersed their aircraft to protect them; their tanks they saw simply as infantry support weapons.
After the summer of 1940, Roosevelt looked out upon a different world. German expertise, German technical prowess and German industry threatened whatever fragile recovery was going on in this country. Ponder this-- unemployment at the time of PH was 10%. What should Roosevelt do? Let the Germans run us out of every market? Things had changed fundamentally with the fall of France.All this talk of PH flies in the face of this: Roosevelt knew Germany was the real enemy.
And don't forget that Germany declared war on US. Ouch, ouch. Big mistake. But there is no doubt that FDR wanted to aid the Brits directly. The Japs were on the wrong side of the world.
Walt
I have also looked at Pearl Harbor as an event to bring a civil action for damages (in theory), where a simple prepondence of the evidence is the legal requirement.
While I agree that Stinnett covers much old and harvested ground, he does present many new items not brought to light before.
For example, a TESTM report, a copy of Nagumo's August 1941 Call Sign List, McCollum's 8-point Action Proposal, GUPID reports, identifies radio-intercept personnel [Kisner, Howard, ... ].
Stinnett also settles the "radio silence" debate - from the National Archives II in College Park, MD ... in the US Navy COMSUM 14 Summary " ... Akgai hear on tactical circuits ... Novemebr 30, 1941 ..." Stinnett also notes [See note on Wilford Masters Thesis, University of Ottawa, Dec. 2000]that more Japanese naval code materials haave recently been released ... so the JN-25a, JN-25b7/8 ... debates may get settles sometime in the not too distance future. [Also, releases from British and Dutch sources {Ranneft's cable traffic would be a nice find} continue.]
Because of the decades worth of effort from others, we know also the "Bomb Plots" [Kimmel nor Short didn't], the secret ABD-1 talks, FDR-Churchill August 1941 agreement (British/Dutch to also embargo oil from Japanese fo FDR's UN-CONSTITUTIONAL commitment for armed support), ...
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury ...
So also knowing FDR's struggle in the 1940 campaign against Wilkie ("I say again, and again, ... no boys in foreign wars) to ... "unless attacked." ... Pearl Harbor is a clear and obvious conseqence.
But, why?
Maybe Mark Willey is correct. Given what happened after WWII from FDR-backed agreements at Tehren/Yalta ... was it a fight to save democracy across the globe? Ask the Poles?
With Pearl Harbor, you have motive-opportunity- ...
For FDR and his War Cabinet ... guilty as charged!
What were the Kita "Bomb Plot" messages about ... divide Pearl Harbor into five sub-areas, report berthing positions, ... use light signal the night of Dec 6th ... Washington knew of these messages MONTHS before the Pearl Harbor attack ... Kimmel nor Short did NOT.
When did Stinnett's paperback edition get released?
You think newer information just might exist to cause a "revision" [sorry for the pun] in one's position.
For example, in the National Archives II is a US Navy report released after Tora Tora Tora was made ... COMSUM 14 report the " ... Akagi heard on tactical circuits ... November 30th ..."
So much for "radio silence" as in Tora Tora Tora ...
Budiansky says NO WAY, Villa [See H-DIPLO postings] says SOME WAY, and Wilford's Master Thesis [University of Ottawa, December 2000] says ... some very interesting letters in the National Archives II about CAST efforts on JN-25/....
But even so, radio silence is now known as not "absolute" and Stinnett identifies the still classified RDF reports of November/December 1941 for the Pacific - why after 60 years still locked up???
Which "war warning" are you pointing to? The one to Kimmel or the one to Short. Both are great studies in semantic "mumbo-jumbo" ... and reported as such in the Congressional Hearings. For Short the stress was on sabotage - and not counter-manned by Washington; for Kimmel it was "... indicate an amphibious expedition against the Philippines Thai or Kra Penisular or Possibly Borneo ...
Also, both were told the Japanese must " ... first overt act."
The 2oth century was dominated by the events surrounding WW1. Barbara Tuckman's The Proud Tower invites putting the blame for that war on the International Socialists. They sure seem to like long wars.
The place all this 'PH attack foreknowledge' breaks down is always going to be Roosevelt's having the Navy attack German U-boats in the Atlantic. Provoking an attack on PH, by the motives you and others ascribe to him, DETRACT from what he wanted, which was war on the side of the Brits against the Germans.
The people who think Roosevelt knew a Jap attack was coming have one problem. He couldn't know what the German reaction would be. Hitler screwed up and declared war on the US in accordance with what his intuition told him. Oops. There is no doubt that Roosevelt wanted to get into the war against the Germans and for the reason I said earlier; to oppose German potential economic power. What you are saying is that Roosevelt sacrificed American lives on the crap shoot chance that the Germans would react in just the way he (by your lights) wanted.
And that is just way too far-fetched.
Yes, clearly Roosevelt was provoking the Japanese. No, he didn't know about or seek an attack on PH.
Walt
Olkay, good.
Nobody is going to give a thing you say in future a smidgen of credibility, so there' no point in addressing your crackpot positions. Have a good day.
Walt
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