Posted on 12/06/2001 12:04:43 PM PST by Jim Robinson
If this happened today the outcome would be different.
Another thing I can't help but go back to is, I believe
a lot of the dissent from the send-him-back crowd
came from personal demons of being "victims" of divorce
and/or who feel guilty about taking off or who had nasty child custody
battles and expensive, hatefilled divorces. They vented here.
The problem here is actually fairly simple. Elian's Miami relatives, and the scores of Americans who scream about how we betrayed or let Elian down are all blind in the same way - Namely, they cannot understand that taking action with benevolant intent does NOT justify trampling on another's rights of choice/decision. In fact, this attitude lies at the core of many social/political disputes. People decide that a certain behavior pattern is in keeping with their moral code, and then go on to try and justify forcing that behavior pattern and/or moral code unto the rest of society. Point out to the perpetrators that this sort of system is hardly FREEDOM, and the outcry is enormous ..... you will be ridiculed and call all sorts of nasty names (any word starting with the letters L-I-B seems to be the moniker of choice in this particular forum)
So, my point? Simply that the crime was not Juan Miguel's, for being Cuban or for living under a political system different from ours - it was not Castro's , it was not Reno's - it blame rests with those well meaning Miami relatives who could not understand that their good intent could not supercede the rights of parenthood. As for Elian's deceased mother - I here the voices saying "what of her wishes" - and my answer is that the party charged with considering her wishes when carrying out his actions is again Juan Miguel.
"it" said sending Elian to commie E.Germany was a yeah-yeah but nazi-Germany was a no-no!
Do you see any difference!
Most patriotic freedom loving Americans would think fighting communism and fascism was a good thing...
how or why would you take sides if both are wrong.
Do you think communism is the lesser of the two--more acceptable??
Fast forward: the country officials where your relatives live won't even consider your relatives statements when they say that you planned to escape even though it is backed up by your friends who also escape to the refugee camp and whose relatives back in Afghanistan will suffer for their outspokenness. Then you get an attorney but he's secretly working for the Taliban. You get to visit the news media of that country, but the Taliban puts your parents and your wife's child by a previous marriage in their custody in case you would be crazy enough to refute their lies. Well anyway, if you want to think that the relatives did Juan Miguel wrong, go right ahead. I bet you never read the transcripts posted in the Granma online of the telephone conversations between Juan Miguel and Marisleysis, he was calling her, "my love", to his child's kidnapper? That whole emnity between the relatives was manufactured by the media and the leftists in government. Uncle Delfin had letters and video tapes of his recent visit to Cuba, presented as court evidence and shown on local newstations, that showed him dancing with Juan Miguel's mother and blowing each other kisses even though Juan Miguel's mother was a Communist party card carrying member and proud of it. Most Miami Cubans have some relative/s back in Cuba that are brainwashed by the Communist lie. No big deal. Delfin and Lazaro and Angela still sent them lots of money because they were family and they loved each other. Well, I have to go and anyway this is all moot because Juan Miguel's godfather and uncle Delfin and Juan Miguel's uncle Lazaro only wanted to make sure that Juan Miguel and Elian would be reunited without the gun packing commie goons around so that they could know what his wishes truly were without communist coercion. Of course, Castro and all the American leftists couldn't allow that to happen because then their house of cards would come crashing down, hence the raid.
I think its hard for Americans to understand the terror of living in a country where the dictator and the snoops can literally put you to death on a whim.
Did you know that it was reported in an American (Knight Ridder) newspaper, El Nuevo Herald, that a child in Cuba was beaten by a Cuban government security guard for just saying that Elian was dumb to have returned to Cuba? There was a man in Cuba a month or so ago who was hungry and stole or ate some beef and was going to be sent to prison, he committed suicide rather than go to the tropical gulag. Some navy doctors who worked at Guantanamo around the time of the Mariel exodus reported that it was apparent that the children in Castro's summer school camps were being used as guinea pigs for Castro's meningitis vaccines. Don't believe Dan Rathers, it's still a gulag. Castro's Human Rights Violations Against Children In Cuba
I'd almost have my husband convinced to throw the tv's out, but he likes the Speedvision motorcycle races and the kids and I do love The Planet's Funniest Animals. Regards.
The Constitution proposes that one of the functions of the central government is to PROMOTE the general welfare of the populance (note - not PROVIDE as is stated for common defense) This axiom mandates neither that the central government be the sole agent working for the common good, nor that it should be in a position to DECIDE what is in fact the common good. I say again that if you propose that Elian's Miami relatives were justified in a criminal act because they did so under the belief that they were acting in the child's best interests then must sanction the right of some person or agency to decide the same for YOUR child, over and above your pleas to retain custody. To fail to agree with this is to propose that your self-righteousnes places you in a position over and above those you seek to bind to your political and moral beliefs, thus nullifying the declaration that "all men are created equal".
I like that show on the funniest animals myself. As for comedy, I always liked to watch Benny Hill. : )
are you an unfit---psycho worried anout yourself? Defending weirdos--kooks--tyranny...seems like it!
...a doctor--lawyer...
are you a self styled attorney general--tyrant--dictator--storm trooper..operations officer(reno lover)?
All of you above posts pretty much say-SHOUT it!
"One of those premises is that without the self discipline, morality, and rationality required for self government, , and people clamor for the police state to restore order."
Great reading...scary!
Sounds like the anarchists-libertarian-potter heads on the FR!
101 posted on 12/13/01 11:08 PM Pacific by f.Christian
liberty crumbles into madness...reno-clinton-gore====>you!
To: Exigence
The Pastor tries to describe in religious terms what's happening to the West. Obviously, he should read more books, most of which he'd dismiss as "secular humanist." Nevertheless, the alarm he expresses is appropriate, even if his responses are a little grating to the ear. This is from another forum:
"Obviously, American politics as discussions of defense, public works, and caring for the halt and the lame is a thing of the past. Instead, we have causes. To really understand American politics today one needs to be familiar with abnormal psychology and totalitarian political theory, particularly Lenin's Vanguard and Spontaneity. Our country is under total attack by madness and institutionalized, vindictive, permanent adolescence. The real focus of contemporary political life in the USA is defending against that attack.
There are two types of troubled people in this contest. There are those who have been insane, or who have been trying to drives us insane, for the last thirty-five to forty years, and there are those of us being driven crazy, who are trying to find an explanation for it all, or who can't believe their eyes and ears.
Conservative people are scared, or should be, regardless of the new President. They know, or should know, that they are under attack. They exhaust themselves trying to reason with those attacking them. No modus vivendi is possible because the political noises attacking them are insane protestations to and denials of reality. Some talk of the coming of the Beast foretold in the Bible, which is the closest they can come to describing the wide spread utter rejection of all things they know to be good and true, but this has a strange, and for some people, disturbing tone that the political and lifestyle left exploits to misrepresent and ridicule opposition and basic human decency as primitive superstition and religious intolerance.
What these good God-fearing people are trying to understand is very real, nonetheless, and if the words "institutionalized insanity compounded by mass angry disturbed adolescence," are substituted for "Anti-Christ," suddenly their observations and apprehensions are very accurate indeed.
Many Conservatives are understandably frightened because they are too busy with life, making a living, raising families, and paying the bills to spend the years of study necessary to refute the unified, carefully orchestrated attack from the political and lifestye left. The academics in the educational system are against them. They have limited access to in-depth alternatives. In the last 40 years, with the reliance upon TV and other institutions controlled by the political-lifestyle left as the major intellectual focus in the USA, some very important premises have been displaced and forgotten.
One of those premises is that without the self discipline, morality, and rationality required for self government, liberty crumbles into madness, and people clamor for the police state to restore order."
A lot of that is a condensed version of some of RLK's stuff.
Click here for a better understanding of the how and why of our contemporary psychotic social psychology. Start at the bottom of the page and work your way up.
88 posted on 12/13/01 10:19 PM Pacific by Mortimer Snavely
One more to soon follow...link too!
Four, too many people in the last 35 years have devised a delusional system whereby they look upon reality and pleas to take basic responsibility as an oppressive right-wing conspiracy.
They have been supported in this belief by the media instead of having it challenged.
The Clintons have surfed this psychotic cultural and generational wave into the White House.
The attempt has been made to understand Bill and Hillary Clinton, particularly Bill, in terms of classical neurosis from abusive childhoods. But much of what is seen in the Clinton generation has made that model obsolete, although many from that generation, including psychiatrists and psychologists, desperately hold on to it to relieve themselves of any personal responsibility.
The truth is, Bill and Hillary Clinton have not suffered a bit of inconvenience for nearly 40 years¾including, for Bill, the inconvenience of military service. By his freshman year in high school Bill found he could manipulate people with showy glibness and deception, and nobody would call him on it. A good memory for acting lines would carry him through easy courses in the most prestigious schools in the country without effort or necessity to learn seriously. From there, he went almost immediately to being the boy governor of a state, and on to the presidency. It was all done with a little empty talk on a level that could be found on any high school debate team.
Hillary has led a similar life of ease and is now being pushed to take a senate seat and run for the presidency in 2004 on a platform of angrily confronting a vast right-wing conspiracy¾ which essentially consists of making accusatory and sarcastic remarks at you and me through a TV screen to the delight of angry women, spoiled angry leftists, and angry minorities. It isn't a bad life for an untalented spoiled brat who, without the world of TV and alienated politics, would be lucky to hold a job as a waitress in a truck stop.
The problem with the both Clintons is that they were long ago licensed to think and act at primitive, immature, and irrational levels of functioning. Much of this was a self-conferred licensing by a generation which has continued, and which has been the root of most of the political, economic, and social problems in this country.
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Robert L. Kocher is the author of "The American Mind in Denial." He is an engineer working in the area of solid-state physics, and has done graduate study in clinical psychology.
His email address is steiner@access.mountain.net. from The Laissez Faire City Times, Vol 3, No 7, Feb. 15, 1999
98 posted on 12/13/01 10:50 PM Pacific by f.Christian
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To: f.Christian
Great reading, isn't it?
100 posted on 12/13/01 10:58 PM Pacific by Mortimer Snavely
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