Harry Potter vs. Gandalf

The Decent Films Guide ^ | 11/01 | Steven Greydanus

[discostu]

It wasn't this way a few years ago.

"A few" must be a much larger number in your lexicon than in most other peoples. Cause I've been the poster child for the "it's anti-Christian" entertainment industry (if there's a Christian group that hates it, I love, but I was there first, they're following me I swear) for 22 years. And it's always the same few beefs: occult, the devil, bad word. I could take any article written about the evils of D&D in 1980 and by replacing fewer than 20 words make it an anti-HP article and you probably wouldn't know the difference, that's how cookie cutter this all is. And that's why I'm always jumping in to defend, because I feel picked on and after 2 decades of this stuff I've got a pretty solid handle on just how bogus the complaints are.

[Revelation 911]

I have never read of, heard about, or witnessed anyone ACTUALLY able to control another human via "witchcraft". The friggin country of Haiti was dedicated to Satan - read up on the people, the evil is tangible and plainly apparent to all with eyes who will see.</rant off> I dont mean to froth but that I disagree strongly, pardon my lather

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Give Aquinasfan credit here. This is an excellent article he's posted. Even if one doesn't agree with the moral argument behind it, it is excellent scholarship on fantasy literature and media -- from Tolkien to Harry Potter to Buffy, The Vampire Slayer -- and how they treat magic.

It definitely has me thinking about the fantasy fiction I write and want to write.

[Aquinasfan]

No a few years ago it was cigarettes and liquor and dancing that would send you to hell. Today it's Harry Potter.

My parish priest told me that the Catholic Superintendent of our local high school (town population: 5000) told him that there is a large number of students who describe themselves as "Wiccans" or "witches," and a smaller number that identify themselves as satanists.

I'm 39, attended a high school with 1,250 students, and don't recall a single self-described witch.

There is a phenomenon here to see for those with eyes.

[Woodkirk]

So then let me see if I understand this --- Dumbledore is the headmaster who makes the rules that Harry and his friends break without Dumbledore punishing him. At one point Harry's teacher is told by Dumbledore not to teach the deeper secrets of sorcery to Harry's class, but the teacher says "I'm going to ignore the headmaster and do it anyway". It sounds to me like JKR wants kids to think of God as Dumbledore -- someone who makes silly rules that can be broken without consequences from the maker of those rules -- that "learning and practicing magic" is a viable reason for ignoring rules against it -- kids don't have to pay attention to his words because he really doesn't mean it. "Dumbledore" ---- what a mocking name she has chosen for the chief authority figure. Even a blind man can see that Dumbledore, his name and bumbling character, is a slap at the God who her books are intended to mock. For all of you who think that these books are innocent fantasy, and think that children falling in love with Harry is innocent fun, you probably think and hope that God is really like Dumbledore , but guess what --- that is your fantasy !!!!!!!!

[discostu]

Yeah but most of the "witchcraft" in Haiti is consentual. Never one to say there's nothing in this world I can't explain, and certainly willing to admit Haiti is a wierd place (never been there, but my aunt was a travel agent for a while and brought me back a voodoo doll once, I could literally (and remember, I'm a huge disbeliever) find that thing in my oh so messy room just by "vibe", when I wanted to find it I knew right where it was, real freaky stuff). But most of the zombie and loa stuff has been shown to be little more than the "target" going along with it for reasons we can't figure out. Which, I think, occult investigators have known all along. There's gotta be a reason why that school is called "sympathetic magic", I think certain sections of society have known for a long time that the "victim" gives voodoo it's power, not the "caster". And of course I can't recall HP having anything to do with that stuff (could be a sidelong I've forgotten). Actually almost nobody in fantasy fiction has. Hmm could be a good convention panel. Better send myself an e-mail to remember this in July.

[Aquinasfan]

To her, and to me, there's no reason to warn people of the dangers of the occult because the most common danger is that people will waste a lot of time. So there's no form of warning within her books, and that doesn't bother me. To you the occult is a real and tangible danger so you see anything that portrays magic in even a neutral light as dangerous.

That would explain our differences then. I appreciate your candor and reasoned arguments. BTW, are you a Christian, atheist, agnostic or some other religion?

[Celtjew Libertarian]

I'm 39, attended a high school with 1,250 students, and don't recall a single self-described witch.

But what fads were there, when you were in H.S.? I can't remember any witches in H.S. (I'm 35), but I remember a fair share of heavy metal fans and D&D players (with me occasionally among the latter) who came in for much the same thing. A few self-destructed; the majority when on to be adults in the same basic range as most adults.

OTOH, I noted more than a few self-described witches and the like, when I was a freshman at the University of Michigan in 1984. There were a pair of roommates, one of whom was fundamentalist Christian, the other a self-described "white witch." Generally they got along. But when the did argue they would start -- as one of them put it -- "furiously blessing each other."

[ctdonath2]

If these books were "fantasy" books about violence or pornography ...

But hey - they're not!

If violence & pornography are so bad, you should be railing against prime-time TV, not HP.

[ctdonath2]

A boy, living in miserable conditions, is discovered to have an unusual affinity to magical manipulations of his surroundings, is taken away to a council of masters who decide what he should learn, and what to teach him to achieve mastery of his mysterious talents to percieve and manipulate his surroundings through magical means. Along the way he meets up with an attractive girl, an annoying sidekick or two, and is caught up in greater events and is pursued by an evil wizard. Wild adventures occur, the story ends, and there is an expected sequel.

Question: am I describing Harry Potter or Anniken Skywalker?
Question: why is the Harry Potter movie considered evil, yet Star Wars is not?

[Ward Smythe]

Give Aquinasfan credit here. This is an excellent article he's posted.

Agreed about the article. But my comment goes beyond just this thread.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Why do people continue to talk about these characters as if they were real?

Same reason we talk about characters like Hamlet and Sherlock Holmes, as if they were real.

[Aquinasfan]

What, in a brief and concise summation, are you trying to convey to the jury, Counselor?

The truth about Harry Potter.

[MSCASEY]

How long have you been involved in Wicca? What made it interesting to you? How did you become involved with it?
MCD

[Aquinasfan]

Generally they got along. But when the did argue they would start -- as one of them put it -- "furiously blessing each other."

LOL! The first "witch thing" I remember was when my girlfriend told me that Stevie Nicks was a "white witch." I was a pretty confused high school kid at the time and didn't know what to make of it. Seemed a little creepy.

We had a contingent of "fleabags" (burnouts), the Led Zepellin crowd, and a handful of D&D players. No witches though.

My wife is 43, and I still can't get over the fact that her high school was divided between the "Us's" and the "Thems (burnouts)." 1975. Two years after the release of Dark Side of the Moon. Freaky.

In college I roomed with 3 Deadheads. One transferred. One drank himself into a janitor job. One managed to graduate. Strange religion, but no devil or nature worship.