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To: Carry_Okie
That does not include aliens. If it did, the guarantees of the Constitution would be global and violate the national sovereignty of other nations over their citizens.

Excellent point. Not only that, but this rigid insistence on universal "absolute natural rights", as we define them, violates the cultural and philosophical traditions of other nations. You can see American tourists arrested and thrown in jail for jaywalking or whatever in gosh forsaken places babbling about "absolute natural rights". I apologize for this ignorant post on this otherwise learned thread but it seems to me we need some sober perspective and a bit humility in a world of many competing ideas where ours (ideas), which have lead to a pretty fogged up, corrupt though big and powerful big banana republic are not impressing the rest of the world as much as they used to.

But on the other hand, if these absolute natural rights apply to all human creatures, then we ought to go to war with the rest of the world enforcing them. Otherwise, to insist that they apply to citizens of the Unites States and (in practice or at some particular time) only those others who commit acts of war and crimes against the citizens and property of the United States is contemptible sophistry in my book.

70 posted on 11/29/2001 6:24:53 PM PST by Revolting cat!
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To: Revolting cat!
Let me withdraw that "contemptible sophistry" statement, if I may, and replace it with "not seeing the forest for the trees". As the saying goes, I stand by what I meant to say.
71 posted on 11/29/2001 6:34:57 PM PST by Revolting cat!
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To: Revolting cat!
I hold that unalienable rights are universal. I also hold that it is not the purpose of the United States government to secure the rights of aliens. This means several things, and some are in conflict with your argument.

If in fact that our opinion that civic respect for unalienable rights is a self-evident truth, that implies that the rest of the world would recognize consequential operational distinctions between our government and theirs. Such respect would test the veracity of the theory and manifest the blessings of liberty as posited. Among these are personal freedom and accountability. It is my opinion that the prosperity and joy among the citizenry would then be the envy of the world.

Envy is a powerful motivator. Certainly we should subvert illegitimate foreign governance, but only insofar as our example is concerned, but in that example we must constrain our faith and enthusiasm. We must make it clear to the world that the blessings of America can be had by virtually any country, should they choose to pursue a government by consent of their governed.

This means among other things that exporting our capital to be secured by a military Pax Americana is precisely the source of those entanglements of which we were warned. It negates our example as one that requires coercion and projects instead an arrogant greed for exploited labor and forced cultural mores.

That culture of degraded morality now stands as a threat to the very existence of undeveloped countries who have no desire to follow the example of Southern Africa. Perhaps we may learn to recognize that also as a powerful motivator.

73 posted on 11/29/2001 7:40:27 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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