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To: Carry_Okie
Please don't preach thus to a person who has read ALL of Farrand's and Madison's notes.

I'm pleased you have read on the subject. It is much more than most Americans do.

From that same Declaration you cite only selectively:

Did you expect me to reproduce it in its entirety?

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men... which was then followed by We the People of the United States... do ordain and establish. The comment stands.

Now who is citing selectively? The previous sentence is: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The rights are not given to us by the constitution but by the creator. Are Americans the only ones the creator decided to give these rights to?

BTW, as I recall it was Hamilton who criticized the BOR on the grounds of its propensity to limit rights, and we all know what a straw man that was coming from him.

Hamilton did oppose the BoR but Madison did as well. See here for an analysis.

The founders were good, but they weren't perfect. There are a number of things in the Constitution that should be changed.

Um, ok. I'll just leave that one alone.

My main point, that I hope you can see, is if our rights are the rights of Americans only, then they are not natural rights. Thus the become merely a priviledge which are guaranteed only by the constitution, not by natural law. Therefore there is not a thing wrong with government deciding that these priviledges should be repealed, simply by altering the constitution. I believe our rights are an absolute.

54 posted on 11/29/2001 6:59:59 AM PST by Straight Vermonter
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To: Straight Vermonter
The rights are not given to us by the constitution but by the creator.

I never disputed that. You should read my original post more carefully. I was pointing out the NECESSARY limits to the scope of enforcement and procedure intended to secure those rights. These must be carried out by government and the correct scope of enforcement is national citizenship.

Everyone on the planet has natural rights, but not everyone has natural rights secured by the Constitution. The point is, where is the boundary? The Constitution confines its application (securing our rights and enforcing our responsibilities as citizens under our justice system and laws) to the people of the United States.

That does not include aliens. If it did, the guarantees of the Constitution would be global and violate the national sovereignty of other nations over their citizens.

55 posted on 11/29/2001 7:29:54 AM PST by Carry_Okie
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