'HARRY' CATCHES HELL FROM CHRISTIANS

That's the opinion at one Christian school in southern Australia, where parents voted yesterday to forbid students from reading about the bespectacled wizard and his preteen cohorts.

The vote was just part of a widespread anti-Harry backlash by religious conservatives angered by the best-selling books' blatant celebration of witchcraft and the occult.

The witches that you know, are play acting. " CURSES " , work, because the cursed person believes it will. Many people, throuhtout history, have claimed that they were " cursed " , when all it was, was a spate of bad luck, or normal illness.

Have you read ANY of the HP books ? Have you seen the movie? Just what do you know about witches, other than from knowing some self proclaimed witches ?

There is NOTHING at all pagan / occultic in the HP books. Do the characters worship pagan gods and goddessed ? NO ! The word occult means HIDDEN. Rather, the idea of wizadry is far older than England as a unified country. Does the reading of the Arthurian legend lead children into the occult, and paganism ? NO ! Why not ? Merlin is a GOOD wizard. What about " THE WIZARD OF OZ ", fairy tales, and the vast amount of pre 20th century children's books that had stories about " magic " , fairies, witches ( both good and bad ) , wizards , and all manner of " little people " in them ? There is NO proof that generations of children, exposed to this stuff went off to join paganism, or try to be wizards.

Please, do try to be rational.

Have you read ANY of the HP books ? Have you seen the movie? Just what do you know about witches, other than from knowing some self proclaimed witches ?

In modern society there are two main official groups of witches;Alexandrian and Gardnerian. Most groups believe in forms of Pantheism; the belief that all things are essentially divine or connected to some divine energy. Also monism: the belief that all things are essentially interconnected commonly stated in the mantra "all is one and one is all". These beliefs are also a mirror of eastern philosophy/religion.
I would point out however that witches are not required to hold to any particular creed so what one witch believes may differ significantly from another. I would also point out that the witchcraft presented to the public today is not necessarily a representation of witchcaft throughout the centuies, in fact it is a type of PC witchcraft,so to speak.
If you do your research you will find that the majority of pagan religions worldwide did advocate animal sacrifes and also child sacrifice.
This was practised by the Celts, Romans, Vikings and others, quite often as a command of the goddess.
Also prevalent in some pagan groups is worship of a horned god which is a symbol to the pagans of fertlity.

I once wrote an essay on the occult which was about 20 pages long. My grandmother was a medium, and like I said I do know more than a couple of witches personally.
If you want me to FReepmail you on any other information I'm confident I can answer any questions you may have

I tried to read the first Harry Potter book about a year ago, but couldn't get through it.

It was just too boring.

Yesterday, I went to see the movie. I had high hopes, because it was highly recommended to me and I thought that perhaps the novel transferred well to the screen.

I was stunned by what a bore it was. I mean really stunned. I was constantly thinking "Won't this movie ever end?". It looked to me like many of the children in the theatre were restless, too.

I tried to understand what its appeal might be.

Here is my hypothesis: A lot of people see themselves as losers and outcasts (like Harry Potter) and fantasize that they will someday, somehow, have something happen that will confer on them great power without the trouble of having to do anything to achieve it. (scholarship to Hogwarts). They demonize those who work for a living (the muggles), while believing themselves to be spiritually greatly superior but with their unique gifts unrecognized. Harry Potter taps into this "I'm a loser feeling" that many people have and, hence, the popularity of the books and film. Think about movies that have most inspired you. Wasn't it because they said something that closely touched on your own life and aspirations?

Personally, I am a lot more worried about what this says about the state of the US and the UK spiritually and intellectually then the possibility that people are going to take up witchcraft. Why do so many see themselves as losers even though by ordinary standards they are not?

The Lord Jesus was a child once. An obedient child and one who loved His fathers house. I think we should ask ourselves this before we let children read these books; Would Jesus have read Harry Potter? Would he think it was a good thing that practises and beliefs which were declared in the Holy Scripture to be hated in the eyes of the Lord should be presented as helpful and to be desired? Would he think that it was harmless and "just fantasy"?

The sad thing here Winston is that many of these parents believe they are Christian. IMHO they may go to church ,but they are not Christians,a follower of Jesus would never give that poison to his child.Scripture asks when our child asks for bread,do we give him a stone? How much more does your heavenly Father love you?These "Christian " parents give their kids stones.

Harry Potter isn't a Wiccan. That is something completely different for going to a school or wizards. Of you don't understand that distiction, then you shouldn't bother trying to talk abot what you know NOTHING at all about, dear. : -)

LOL!!! He is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch. However you frame up squire Potter is the same to me. From a religious standpoint there is a blur of a line between them. The parallels are many and the end result is the same.

And your argument about knowing nothing is a typical ploy. One that people use when there is nothing that will change their minds. After all, in your mind I know nothing and you must therefor set out to discredit me. I am sure that you use this in the abortion debates too. After all I am willing to bet that because a person is not female they ought not to talk about it, after all, they know NOTHING about it right??

Seek and ye shall find. Those other sources you cited are UNauthoritative. Try a good dictionary == a good college dictionary -- Webster"s New World Dictionary of the American Language/ College Edition with over 1700 pgs -- you know something you won't find in your house but in a good library, that gives you word origins and traces their derivations. Webster's and British history is quite clear. Deny as you might but can't change history, the Scriptures, or the dictionary. For hundreds of years people here in America and Britain have referred to Satan as Old Harry. What Old Harry is all about is preserved in the word "harry" with a small "h". If you look in all the wrong places you'll never find it, but if you look for it with an honest heart, you will find the truth and perhaps a pardon as well. The choice is yours -- to find the truth about "Harry" or be a fool for Harry.

I give up on these people... they claim to be God fearing Christians, and I'm sure that many are. However, they are also unbending, inflexible, zealots ... the type who have turned so many people away from God that one starts to wonder about them. Their religious arrogance (my interpretation of God's word is better than yours, therefore I'm a better Christian) is just about intolerable. I pray to God that he helps them see their error before they turn many more people away from God.

I'm a Christian, and I'm a politcal pragmatist/conservative but I don't won't to be associated with those that are so inflexible in their religious arrogance that in their eyes only they are right. I have no doubt in my mind that if the religious zealots here had their way, they'd burn every copy of Harry Potter book they could lay their hands on ... not to mention any other book they deemed in their infinite wisdom to be inappropriate. Would be like deja vu.

If anyone else is curious as to what the hell "skooz" is talking about, this was my original post:

Don't you people have anything better to do????????????Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!! Have any of you heard of the concept of "making you look the other way"??????? If you all believe Satan created and or is Harry Potter, do you think maybe he is using these arguments as a distraction from the Really Important Things that are happening and coming to light in the World right now?????? Go Read Some News

I neither intended it, nor can see that it is, an attack on anyone's religious beliefs. I was merely trying to point out that Satan could be using HP as a distraction and that could be more dangerous than anyone believes HP is in itself. :)

The Romans didn't do child / human sacrifices . I know all about Cernunnos, and could probably teach you things about him, that you don't know. LOL For example, did you know that the anent Hebrews' Satan was neither horned, cloven hoofed , nor tailed ? : - )

Hmmmmmm ... well, if your grandmother was a medium, and you associate with witches, then, according to the logid ( ? ) used by some on this thread, you are committing many sin, by just being with these people. Unless you have converted ALL of these people, you are in far worse shape than those who have read / seen anything to do with HP. See how that argument hoists people on their own petards ?

Please qute, for any HP book, where Harry worships a pagan god and / or goddess . Thanks. : - )

Hmmmmmm ... well, if your grandmother was a medium, and you associate with witches, then, according to the logic ( ? ) used by some on this thread, you are committing many sin, by just being with these people. Unless you have converted ALL of these people, you are in far worse shape than those who have read / seen anything to do with HP. See how that argument hoists people on their own petards ?

Please qute, for any HP book, where Harry worships a pagan god and / or goddess . Thanks. : - )

There are bigger threats in the world being brought to light, right now, and I just find it interesting that Harry has a lot of people "looking the other way".

Now I might just have to agree with your analogy. If there is anything wrong about the Potter Movie and books, it would be that so many "Christians" are exerting a lot of energy on inert subject matter.

Energy that could be spent doing a lot of good. Like helping the poor, the homeless. Trying to get the word out about the infanticide that is going on. There are a million worthy causes. And I have to agree with what someone said. The energy and time should be spent on stopping some of the songs (Like "some" of the young artists sing, people like Eminem, etc.)

I know there was sin when I was young.. but I have to say it wouldn't hurt to go back to a TON of the lifestyles that we lived back then. I always thought as we evolved, we got wiser. Not necessarily so... sadly!

Anyway,.. just wanted to tell you I appreciated your view on this subject.. there definetly are bigger fish to fry!! Thanks for saying it so well.

God Bless!

The two word refference to the sevil, used in America and England is " OLD HAIRY " ; not Old Harry ! " WEBSTER'S ENCYCLOPEDIC UNABRIDGED DICTIONARY of the Enaglish Language", which is what I quoted, is well OVER 1700 page. You just don't like that , because it doesn't substanciate what YOU quoted. I*f you'd rather, I can use my first addition of " JOHNSON'S DICTIONARY " which is THE first dictionary of the English language, and which only 6 people, world wide, have in their private collection. All the others are in museums or special ( no one but specialists can even look at it in these places ) library vaults.

The deffinition of harry, with a small " H " is : 1. to harass,annoy,or prove a nuisanceto be repeated attacks,worry: to harry the enemy forces. 2.to ravage, as inwar, devistate ;The troops harried the countryside.-v.i. 3. to make harrising incursions. [ ME heri(en), OE her(g)ian ( deriv. of here army ); G (ver) heeren,Icel herja to harry, lat waste.]

As you can see, harry ( with a small h) is a verb , and has a liniage in Middle English, Old English, German, and Icelandic. A tutonic word of anticquity. There is NO Hebrew, Aramaic , Greek, or Latin word / root .

Please refer to my previous post, wherein I have supplied you with a rather definative book list about the devil, his history, and his names.

If one calls a shoe, an apple, it is still a shoe.

I have to ask.. did you read the books or see the movie?

I normally agree with most of your views. But we must agree to disagree on this one. Our family are all Christians. We do more than just go to Church on Sundays. We don't do the things we do to gain entry into heaven. We do it because it is demanded of us.

But we also feel that this movie and the books are so innocent, that to say they aren't is dangerous. One day your child will grow up and see it. I truly believe at that time they will look back on the rest of your teachings and think you were an extremist radical person who could not "reason" with the wonderful gift of "thought" that the good Lord gave you. They will see how harmless it was, and wonder if every thing else you told them was wrong.

I happen to believe we would never have had a man walk on the moon, had people listened to radical nay sayers. An imagination is a gift from God. Some Art is so beautiful that you know intuitively it was "inspired" talent.

Some ministers have the ability to reach the hearts of thousands,.. some only a person or two. I would wager they are equal in the eyes of the Lord if their hearts are true.

I know in my heart the difference between good and evil.

And in closing,.. if you ever watched the Wizard of Oz, Peter Pan, or Snow White, Cinderella, Casper the Ghost, or a multitude of any other innocuous films, then you have already watched things just as "good" or "bad" as "Harry Potter".

The Christians who are panicking about this movie,.are actuallly sending a lot of people in to see it, so they can judge for themselves. We got the audio book after reading all the fuss here. Then we loved it,..saw the movie with our grandchildren,..and would tell anyone we know that it is a bunch of hogwash to worry about it. IOHO (in our humble opinion)

We have written to newspapers to say that this whole fuss is just ridiculous. It hampers any attempts at getting rid of the TRULY filthy crud that hits the airwaves. It discredits the opinions of Christians as a whole. It kills the voice we should have in a UNITED effort to get rid of the things that ARE harmful.

Again.. just our opinion, along with a TON of other Christians who we've spoken to about this movie. I happen to feel your in the minority on this one.

And btw,.. I do think the Lord has a sense of humor. God also had a wonderful imagination. How else could you explain creation??

Keep looking -- you'll find it. The meanings of the words: "harry" and "harrass" are close to the meanings of the word "Satan" which from the Hebrew/Chaldee means literally "adversary, enemy, opponent, attacker". The Hebrew/Chaldee root "ar" means "enemy, foe, mischievous person". Haven't you ever read early British American literature or even heard someone who has just suffered a setback say "Old Harry sure got me this time". Some trace the name back to Roman soothsayers known as "haruspex", and others to Italian theatre characters called "harlequins" known as demon huntsmen who wore masks and colorful costumes so as to disguise their deviish intentions.. Keep asking and searching in older complete dictionaries and literature and translations. The truth is found in the past not the present, in those older books that foolish people say are passe, but truly hold the keys to the present meaning of things.

I have NEVER read, nor heard ANYONE refer to Satan as " Old Harry "; not ever. The FIRST English language dictionary, was composed by Samuel Johnson, and printed in 1755. In Vol. 1 , under harry ( there is NO Harry, as a given name ) there are quotes from Shakespeare, using the word, and deffinitions quite similar to the ones I've already given you. There is NO mention, at all, that it is in anyway related to the devil . There is also NO , none, zero, nada, zip, bupkiss,entry for " OLD HARRY " .

Oh goody, we are getting deeper and deeper into areas of my expertise ! LOL

I took four years of Latin, and though YOU have attributed harry to a Latin precursor, this is NOT the truth. The word is a direct descendent of and is rooted in the ancient Germanic / Tuetonic . As you no doubt know, this ancertral tonuge is far removed from Latin, and isn't part of the " Romance " languages, which derive from Latin.

How far back would you like to trace the modern theatre from ? Primative society ? Shall we start with the Greeks; as they are an easier jumping off point. There are NO devils in Greek tradgedies or comedies. There are witches; but no wizards. Ancient Rome borrowed much from Greek theatre, though, truth be told, their comedy and farce are the true precursors of Punch & Judy, Mystery / Passion plays, The Commdia Dell'Arte , and modern theatre ; including Vaudeville, Burlesque, and The English Music Hall.

Punch and Judy shows, predate the Commedia Dell'Arte ( from whence the Harleqin character comes from ), and is just the sort of play, that the earliest Passion or Myster plays , from the mid 5th century A.D. , were used to reinforce Biblical / allegorical concepts. Yes, the devil plays a role in both , and is prominent in Punch and Judy. No, he is NOT called " HARRY ", in any versions.

Masks have been used, in plays, from time immimorial; from priative societies, through the ancient Greek, Roman, tribal English / French Mummer ( which are, in fact derived from the pagan rites of May day, or Beltane. The Geeks used them to not only serve the purpose that makeup now does, but also as the FIRST audio system. You see, they were constructed to amplify the voice, like megaphones do, pre today's microphones. There is just so far that the human voice, even when trained , can be thrown when talking. Yodelling or singing can extend the voice,over an even greater distance ; however, the actors didn't sing their parts. The ancient MUMMERS, worse masks, as part of the shaministic " magic " , of taking on ( changing into / shapeshifting ) the persona of the animal spirit , of the skis and masks they wore.

Alberto Naselli, probably the first Harleguin, would argue with you that this character is in any way a representative of Satan. Please state your source for such a nonhistorical claim. Almost every single character, in the Commedia Dell'Arte repitoire wore a mask , and NONE of them did so, because they were implying the devil. That was the form of this type of theatre , and as a matter of fact, Commedia Dell'Arte, is often called : " THE COMEDY OF MASKS".

Now, if you want to actually trace the Commedia Dell'Arte, to it's original roots, then we mst talk about the Zannis, which in turn, has its roots in ancient, pagan , Northern Italian folklore, with a connection to propriation rites and celebrations similar to the mdern carival. Yes, they were minor " demons " ; but , NOT Satan, the devil, etc.! This is your own assumption, and not born out by any authority on the threatre.

If you need help understanding this, in a fuller context, I shall be happy to walk you through it, via FREEPmail. :-)

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