Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division

The New York Times ^ | 11.17.01 | John W. Fountain

[David Gould]

Brilliant riposte...

I am actually trying to discover why some Christians want prayer in schools and what the possible consequences could be. If you do not want to argue about that, fine. But why did you join in in the first place?

[Victoria Delsoul]

God is at work in America!

Amen!

Thanks so much for the flag.

[nicmarlo]

I am actually trying to discover why some Christians want prayer in schools and what the possible consequences could be. If you do not want to argue about that, fine. But why did you join in in the first place?

I originally posted a positive comment. I do not mind sharing or debating intelligently. I will not argue.

[David Gould]

What is your specific criticism of my response to your 'evil is against the law' statement?

[rwfromkansas]

Funny how people always come back to the slave thing instead of actually debating the MERITS of what the founders said or what the courts ruled on other topics.

[David Gould]

By the way, I should add that in all debates like this we (and by this I mean me, I guess) run the risk of offending others by our comments. Part of the reason is because short written messages often appear terse (or curt).

I want to discuss these matters with others. And people get emotional. (especially me).

So, to calm myself down, I have some topic digressing jokes for you all:

>From the Australian Bureau of Statistics

> >3 Australians die each year testing if a 9V battery works on their >tongue.

>142 Australians were injured in 1998 by not removing all the pins from new shirts.

>58 Australians are injured each year by using sharp knives instead of screwdrivers.

>since 1998 17 Australians have been seriouly injured after being hit by cars while running naked down the street.

>31 Australians have died since 1996 by watering their Christmas tree while the fairy lights were plugged in.

>19 Australians have died in the last 3 years by eating >Christmas decorations they believed were chocolate.

>Hospitals reported 4 broken arms last year after cracker pulling incidents.

>101 Australians since 1997 have had to have broken parts of plastic toys pulled out of the soles of their feet.

>18 Australians had serious burns in 1998 trying on a new jumper with a lit cigarette in their mouth.

>A massive 543 Australians were admitted to casualty in the last two years after opening bottles of beer with their teeth or eye socket.

5 Australians were injured last year in accidents involving out of control scale electic cars.

.........and finally:

8 Australians cracked their skull in 1997 after falling asleep (passingout) while throwing up into the toilet.

YEP! It's great to be Australian!

[Bellflower]

The reason hell is so completely awful is because it is the place of seperation from God and all of the blessings that flow from him. Because we are all sinners we all deserve to go to hell. God gave his precious Son to a horrible death that he did not deserve so that we can be spared the fate we so richly deserve. That is love. Jesus came to save us, not to condemn us. It is not that God condemns us to hell but rather that we condemn ourselves to hell by ignoring our plight and not seeking out God with all our heart. I have the opportunity to pray for my love ones, witness to them and most importantly show them that I love them. I solemnly believe that God is going to save them (and has already saved most of them-Praise him). I had an elderly friend who prayed all her life faithfully for her family and saw most of them come to the Lord before she died. Some of them on their death beds. I suggest that if you truly love those who are close to you that you do the same thing for them. They are in great need of your earnest prayers. Please do not bury your head in the sand.

[David Gould]

Did every friend you ever had who is now dead believe in God? And what about innocent children in, for example, Afghanistan? Or even the Jews, Muslims, atheists and others who died in the WTC? Do you honestly feel comfortable that all of them are (according to some versions of Christianity) going to Hell?

If Christianity is true, good people will end up in Hell. I cannot justify Christianity to myself on those terms. Therefore, I looked for a way to reconcile my desire for justice (good rewarded, evil punished) with Christianity. I could not do it and came to atheism instead.

[so_real]

If it were clear that:

1.) God was not real; and

2.) God's goodness was purely idealistic

Why have Christians following the idealistic good been persecuted throughout history? Why are Christians assassinated for preaching the Word?

I am glad that you would not fight tooth and nail against God after establishing His existence. But that still leaves you with a hurdle that you may need help crossing.

[rwfromkansas]

I am a Christian. I believe that all governments should obey Christ and submit to him, as he is the head of the church and ruler of the world. In fact, Scripture states in Romans very clearly that the govt. is the "sword of God" etc. A secular govt. is quite contary to what is exemplified in Scripture, even in the NT. Am I pushing for this in America now? Not until and unless people have a change of heart and come back to Christ and God. But that does not change my conviction on what govt. should be. At the same time, I am not pushing for some Muslim-esque theocracy where people are executed for dancing on Sunday or something.

What I AM pushing for even without the nation truly reforming to Christ yet is a return to teh founder's views on religion in public...which are more right wing than even myself on this issue since well, Jefferson and Madison had a bill in Virginia that they wrote and introduced (it ended up passing) to punish Sabbath breakers. The funny thing is, this was in the same day they put in a bill establishing religious freedom. So, what I am pushing for is prayer in schools, the Ten Commandments being posted, doctrinal classes on basic Christian principles that all the denominations can agree on. However, at the same time, I would allow people to exempt out of the prayer and doctrine classes. AFter all, as a Calvinist Christian, I understand that it is not what I do that saves anyone, but only the working of the Holy Spirit, which does what it pleases WHEN and HOW it pleases and it is contrary to Scripture to force unbelievers to learn about God in such a forced manner..and quite frankly, it stinks in God's nostrils to have unbelievers pray to him as some ritual when they don't believe in him!

[rwfromkansas]

There is no such thing as a "good person."

[rwfromkansas]

Thomas Paine was attacked in America for his anti-religious views. Jefferson was a deist, so was Franklin. YET, the latter two both approved of CHRISTIAN...and only CHRISTIAN religious exercises in public. makes you think, doesn't it. I have about 50 pages on this subject, so I know what the heck I am talking about. I also know Jefferson removed the things he did not like from teh Bible and created his own "Jesus bible" with only things he liked in the words of Christ. Their religious beliefs do not matter here...they supported religion in public...and that DOES matter.

[rwfromkansas]

It is not true that George Washington was a Deist, however. his prayer notebook shows this to be a bunch of garbage, as does his grandaugher's statements to a biographer of him, et al. Sure, he did not take communion because he thought it became corrupted, but other than that, he was a Christian.

[David Gould]

The simple answer is that there are some nasty people in the world.

A more complex answer could start along these lines:

1.) If someone told you that unless you believed a certain thing that could not be proven true, you would go to eternal damnation, how would you feel towards them? (how do you fell towards Muslims?)

2.)What if they told you that even if you believed a certain thing, all of your dead relatives who had not believed were already suffering in hell?

Throw in the fact that some Christians did not preach love but burned and massacred Christians of other sects and what do you get? A confusing mess. If all Christians lived by the Word then maybe it wouldn't be so hard to believe. Unfortunately, not many of them seem to.

I do have a long way to go in my search for knowledge and truth - it is an infinite journey in a finite lifetime. However, if i fail to find the same truths you have, why then do I deserve hell? Surely God could have designed things better than that. Why not, for example, give me another shot (reincarnation)? Or even just mercifully put me out of my eternal torment? So many questions....

[rwfromkansas]

boy, Jefferson sure was a radical secularist, even having federal funds to support Christian missionaries to the Indians and setting aside public funds to build churches

/sarcasm.

Perhaps if you would do your own research, instead of just believing what your public school teachers have told you, you would realize that it is not so cut and dry that the founders hated religion like you seem to think.

[David Gould]

Do you honestly think that we all deserve eternal torment? Think about someone you love. Why do you love them? Because you see the good in them, even if this good is merely a reflection of God. Imagine them suffering for all time simply because they did not understand God's message. Can you truly think that a good God would want that to happen and that he would stop it if he could? And if he is the creator of the universe, why couldn't he have stopped it from happening?

If we are saved through grace alone then everyone is saved because choosing to believe is an action (a 'work'). If we are saved through works, then there must be good people.

Because God has a plan for our salvation, he must want us to be saved, correct?

If he wants us to be saved, that means that he at least thinks we are worth saving.

That means that there must be good in us.