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Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division
The New York Times ^ | 11.17.01 | John W. Fountain

Posted on 11/18/2001 4:35:27 PM PST by victim soul

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To: ohioWfan; nicmarlo
Perhaps there is hope for this country.
41 posted on 11/18/2001 6:13:35 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: nomasmojarras
Prayer can be done anywhere, as long as it doesn't offend other people.

Prayer is a private thing , and it is purely for show and attention that a person prays in public. Church is essentially a public demonstration of your faith. If 2 little girls want to pray, they can do it at home or at church.

Listen to yourself. Quite dictatorial, aren't you?

42 posted on 11/18/2001 6:16:27 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: He Rides A White Horse
Perhaps there is hope for this country.

The prayers of a righteous man accomplisheth much. And I do believe we have lots of prayers going out. There seems to be lots of prayer warriors in FR, too.

43 posted on 11/18/2001 6:19:36 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: victim soul
Harvey, IL, is a largely black suburb of Chicago. It has a reputation as an unsafe place. The south suburbs of Chicago tend to have large percentages of black residents. And, also tend to have crime problems.

If the ACLU gets involved here, it runs the risk of being labelled "RACIST".

44 posted on 11/18/2001 6:22:07 PM PST by Tom Pain
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To: nomasmojarras
You don't need union of church and state to pray.

I'll say again also that you are mangling the concept of separation of church and state. There is nothing here that establishes an official state religion.

45 posted on 11/18/2001 6:22:27 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: He Rides A White Horse
That should help... What are you going to pray to happen to/for me? I assume it is something like me finding salvation? Already had it once. Then I started questioning. Then I started getting some answers. Unfortunately, they weren't answers that supported the Christian idea of god. So my beliefs changed. If I can take your prayer as being a hope for the best for me, then I thanks. I hope the best for you too.
46 posted on 11/18/2001 6:23:27 PM PST by David Gould
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: David Gould
Well, I am not praying for your death.....
48 posted on 11/18/2001 6:28:08 PM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: Lowcountry
When did I say that? What exactly are you asking for when you pray to God to defend America from terrorist attack? Are you asking that all people learn to love one another? Or are you praying for the death or life time imprisonment of bin Laden? If the latter, you are praying for evil to befall someone. If the former, then you are praying for something that presumably God already wants - yoru prayer is useless in that regard. Why not take action to inspire love in others? Nothing fails like atheism? Atheism is merely holding no belief in God. It cannot fail in the sense you mean. I am not advocating atheism - I am advocating actions that do good and not actions that achieve nothing...
49 posted on 11/18/2001 6:29:28 PM PST by David Gould
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To: Bellflower
I am happy and whole now I no longer have the worry that those I love may spend an eternity in torment because a so-called loving God sends them there after death.
50 posted on 11/18/2001 6:31:03 PM PST by David Gould
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To: rapture-me
Not in the Bible? Excuse me - I know there is no wisdom out there that is not in the Bible. Must remember to throw out all my cooking books and computer manuals...

I am looking at a tree outside my window. How about you pray that it moves a few feet to the right. When that fails, I will get a shovel and dig it up and move it. That should prove two things:

1.) nothing fails like prayer 2.) God helps those who help themselves

51 posted on 11/18/2001 6:34:27 PM PST by David Gould
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To: Faithfull
Thanks for your good wishes (I will take all prayers for me as good wishes). I have read some articels by and on Strobel. As a former Christian, I have made the opposite journey.
52 posted on 11/18/2001 6:35:59 PM PST by David Gould
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Comment #53 Removed by Moderator

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To: David Gould
You have my sympathy and my prayers, Mr. Gould. It is easy to hold the idea of God in contempt and derision when everything is going fine in your life and you, Mr. wonderful, are in complete charge of your life, fortunes, and your loved ones are in perfect health. When unbearable things start happening to the health and welfare of your loved ones and you can do nothing to help them, humility quickly replaces your arrogance.

I am fully aware that God is not Santa Clause or the good fairy, waiting out there to fulfill your every wish and command. Not all sick people are healed and not every prayer is answered as we desire it to be. Everyone who has ever lived before us are dead, no faith was strong enough to keep mortals alive and healthy forever. Death awaits all flesh. But I have had prayers answered and loved ones spared, and my own existance extended as well, against all odds.

God is in charge-his will will be done regardless of desires to the contrary, but time and eternity will show that he knows best, and if we obey his will we will, after all is said and done, and done comprehend the wisdom of his actions.

55 posted on 11/18/2001 6:39:46 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell
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To: Faithfull
"Lee Strobel, despite his years of atheism is today a changed man....and I'll let you read about what happened on his journey. These are life changing books! Blessings to you David."

Lee was my Teaching Pastor for 6 years. He is a very good man and 'did a good work in me'.

That being said, he is also somewhat of a lightweight when it comes to convincing someone who doesn't already suspect God's existence. I would recommend the Bible as a source material. If that doesn't do it, then nothing man-made will.

As for myself now, the Church has injured my spirit and I will never be the same. My vote is for private prayer and study and leaving the organizations alone.

56 posted on 11/18/2001 6:40:46 PM PST by Rogmonster
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To: nicmarlo
"separation between church and state does not exist in the Constitution." -- nicmarlo

The argument is not based on a Constitutional imperative. Religions are numerous, contradictory, diverse and largely false. They are also ostensibly concerned with the supernatural. This implies two things; believers can make all manner of outrageous claims to special instructions from God which men outside of the faith are not privy to; and, more importantly, they can justify the extermination or conversion of nonbelievers. While it is presently true that most Christian religions in the U.S. are relatively benign it is the intolerant fundamentalist faiths that will aggressively dominate the secular institutions at the grass roots level.

Once this door is opened it is only a matter of time before the group with the most extreme and aggressive followers is in charge and anyone who doesn't toe the line will find themselves in a hell of these zealots' making. It is this possibility, however remote, that must be minimized by the simple expedient of keeping any form of religion from being sanctioned by an attachment to government institutions.

58 posted on 11/18/2001 6:46:23 PM PST by Vercingetorix
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To: F.J. Mitchell
"God is in charge-his will will be done regardless of desires to the contrary, but time and eternity will show that he knows best, and if we obey his will we will, after all is said and done, and done comprehend the wisdom of his actions."

If God's will will be done regardless of desires to the contrary, what is the point of prayer? By your reasoning, God wanted 6,000 US citizens to be killed on September 11. Saying that it was an evil thing therefore is blasphemy against God's will...

I guess I will never understand Christians. And I was one...

59 posted on 11/18/2001 6:48:13 PM PST by David Gould
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To: F.J. Mitchell
You also make the assumption that everything is going fine in my life.

I have also heard Christians say that atheists only become atheist because of some bad event in their lives which they blame on God and thus turn against him.

It seems you can have it both ways...

60 posted on 11/18/2001 6:51:31 PM PST by David Gould
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