Posted on 10/25/2001 7:17:34 PM PDT by truthandlife
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan (Exodus 6:3-4).
Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel (Eze 11:17)
The Bush administration's shifting policy toward Israel, including support for a Palestinian State, should be of grave concern to every Bible-believing American. U.S. policy, which effectively opposes Israel's right to self-defense, is so thoroughly hypocritical, especially in light of the U.S. action in Afghanistan, that even Congressional Democrats who favor a Palestinian state are reacting to it. But far more important:
--God's covenant with the Jewish people regarding their inheritance of the land of Israel is one of the most frequently mentioned themes in Holy Scripture. God will keep His promises. American Christians must not stand idly by and allow our young-Christian President to be hoodwinked by advisors who do not know the Bible or the God of the Bible (see Gen 15:18; 17:8; 28:13-15; 35:1213; Dt 30:1-6; Jer 11:5; 30:3; 32:37-33:26; Eze 11:16-17; 20:41-44; 34:12-13; 36:22-24; 38:8; 39:25-28; 47:13-48:35; Amos 9:13-15; Zec 7:14; 8:1-8).
--God is watching. Although He lifted His Hand to allow the terrible attacks that have led to the present war, we believe His hand of protection has not been removed totally. But we also believe that if we abandon Israel, whether motivated by oil, military or political strategy or for our own nation's self preservation, it will be "the last straw" for America. God's hedge, upon which we depend, could be lifted from our beloved land altogether. God is Judge of all nations! (Ps 9:17; 82:1; Is 2:4a; Zec 2:7-13; 12:3; 14:3).
God warned Israel not to trust in horses or chariots but to trust in the Lord our God. America must do likewise and stand by Israel even if it means alienating many others. If we bend, in the long run, these nations will hate us still and we will have lost everything - including God's favor. Although the administration is vacillating and may appear to be shoring up its commitment to Israel, President Bush needs to hear from each of us. Please take time right away to write President Bush a letter from your own heart. A letter is better than a fax, a fax better than a phone call, a phone call better than an email. This simple act could be the most important of your life. (White House mail is being processed, albeit slowly, because of the anthrax attacks. But don't let this deter you from writing.)
Write: The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20500
Call or Fax: The White House Switchboard - 202-456-1414, Fax - 202-456-2461
Please Join us in Prevailing Prayer:
--Heavenly Father, SPEAK to our President! Cause men & women of God from across America & from around the world to make an EFFECTIVE APPEAL. May George Bush HEAR Your Voice, LEARN Your Word and DO Your Will. May the U.S. remain immovably loyal to Israel. In Jesus' Name. Amen (1 Kg 22:5, 13; 2 Kg 22:18-19; Es 4:14; Pr 21:1; Is 30:21; Mt 6:10; 1 Cor 15:58).
With all due respect, jc
With all due respect, jc
If Moslems were as loving as they like to talk about, what is the problem of them 'giving' that little strip of land to the Jews. They have millions and millions of acres of land. They don't need Israel. They just want to destroy Jews AND CHRISTIANS. You are living in a dreamworld if you do not recognize that basic fact of Moslem existence.
Hebrews 8 specifically states the Old Covenent has been replaced with the New. The land of Caanan was part of the Old Covenent. The promise of the New Covenent is salvation. Thus again, scripture directly contradicts your case that the Jews are somehow entitled to possess Palestine.
Revelation, or Apocalypse, of St. John is an alegorical vision and not to given the ultra-literalist interpretation you give it. The Church Fathers unanimously agreed that "Israel" in the passage you cite refers to the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, the New Israel.
And you realize you're talking to a "religious fanatic," but I've noticed that the anti-religious rationalists and the religious fanatics who share an opposition to Israel never get mad at each other.
And why be opposed to "socialism" or any other thing unless it is opposed to the Jewish G-d Who created the world and told us what is right and what is wrong in the first place? If you're that rationalist, you might want to build a time machine and go back to Jacobin France where you belong.
Another Jacobin.
... a "religious fanatic,"
Goody for you. Ive chosen other hobbies. I respect your right to belong to any religion you wish as long as you dont push it on me Mr. Taliban.
...but I've noticed that the anti-religious rationalists and the religious fanatics who share an opposition to Israel never get mad at each other.
Which certainly could occur, the two groups have opposing opinions on the validity of religion. Since the discussion of our foreign relations with Israel has nothing to do with religion, members of these groups might agree. As a nation of religious freedom we should not determine our foreign relations based on the religion practiced by the majority of the nation we are interacting with. "Israel" is not "Judaism" and vice versa regardless of the number of times that demagogues trot out religion or genocide. Even if it were it would make no difference, as a nation of religious freedom it also means that we as a nation can play no favorites.
And why be opposed to "socialism" or any other thing unless it is opposed to the Jewish G-d Who created the world and told us what is right and what is wrong in the first place?
Because even your G-d laid down the ground rules but kind of left the rest up to us...unless you can point out the chapters and verses of the parking statutes and international trade tariffs. Thanks in advance.
If you're that rationalist, you might want to build a time machine and go back to Jacobin France where you belong.
Would you like me to swing by the stone age and drop you off on my way?
If I've been conned, why do you tell me to believe what I want to believe?
Because in the USA, you are free to believe what you want to believe.
As, and does the fact that this is the American way automatically mean it is G-d's will? In Biblical Israel, which was the world's only true Theocracy, people did not have the freedom to believe what they wanted to believe. Nor did they in chr*stendom until post-renassance rationalism.
I have no interest in trying to convince you to believe what I believe,
That and the fact that I'd hand your tush to you gift-wrapped. I have debated people over this. When I say I believe there is an objectively true religion that all are obligated to submit to, I'm not kidding.
and I resent you trying to convince me to believe what you believe.
Does this mean you're opposed to chr*stian missionary activity, as this is what ever missionary does?
It’s just my opinion that you’ve been “conned”, but I’m not going to waste a lot of time trying to convince you of that.
Then you're wasting of time to tell me I've been conned (when you won't prove that to me) is an even bigger waste of bandwidth.
Because you have no reason whatsoever for your beliefs except that that's what you've always believed?
No, what I believe is not what I’ve always believed.
Did you resent it when whoever converted you tried to convince you (successfully) of something you originally didn't believe in?
You are doing the same thing Ben is doing. You are jumping to conclusions, you are trying to categorize a lot of people and put them into one preconceived category, and you are trying to label all people who disagree with you as being just alike. But life and the world are not that simple.
Perhaps you'd be surprised how the enemies of Israel, from across the religious and political spectrum, join hands on FreeRepublic. One minute an atheist is laughing at me for believing in "bronze age mythology" and the next an anti-Jewish chr*stian is congratulating him because the Jews have been superceded.
What do you think of ultrarightwing Catholics
You mean the kind that want to go back to using Latin in their church services?
Are you that naive? I mean rightwing Catholics who hold that the Founding Fathers were rationalist freemasons and that we should never have left the monarchy . . . who hold that it is the responsibility of each and every State on earth to make Catholicism the official state religion and to see to it that its people practice it . . . who assert that freedom of religion is a plot of a Satanic "Judaeo-masonic conspiracy" . . . . If you've never heard of these people, just surf the Net a bit. You'll find them. (NB: Not all rightwing Traditionalist Catholics are anti-Jewish. There is a splendid gentleman here on FR whose name I am never able to spell, but who is both a steadfast Catholic traditionalist and pro-Jewish. He is one of my favorite people.)
BTW, you do know, don't you, that Thomas Jefferson went through his Bible with a razor blade and cut out all the miraculous and supernatural stuff? And that Thomas Paine wrote a book called The Age of Reason that was called "The Atheist's Bible?" And if you want to know George Washington's religious beliefs, just read Douglas Southall Freeman's excellent biography.
Meanwhile FR is full of anti-chr*stian atheists and rationalists who attack Israel (like Seti1 or whatever his name is) who attack the Bible as primitive mythology and you give them a free pass.
I don’t give them a “free pass”. I’ve argued with a lot of atheists on this and other message boards.
I apologize for misjudging you. I have read your response to one of the "rationalists" on this thread. On that issue you and I are allies. Like you, I simply don't understand why anti-religious types latch onto the conservative movement in the first place, as the whole conservative cause is to fight for G-d and His Will. But you'll find plenty of Randians and such like here. Maybe on that issue we can help each other out.
BTW, thank you for taking the position you do.
I don’t “attack” Israel. I just like to promote the USA over other countries, and I like to defend against anti-USA attacks by whoever attacks the USA.
Many people who attack Israel do so because its founders were socialists. Yet they hypocritically ignore the fact that the United States of America is a product of the "age of reason" and all its philosophies. The American founders were mostly deists and freemasons who were nominal chr*stians. The American Revolution was in fact the very first project of the International Left and it attracted all the atheists and anti-traditionalists of the day (all those famous foreigners who came over here to fight for us were not religious, and even the socialist Saint-Simon was among the French who fought at our side). In France Benjamin Franklin (deist, freemason, and a member of the satanist "hell fire club") was the darling of the "new left" intellectuals of the day, who made big whoop over him the same way ours do de indigenous pipples. Maybe the Left's whole anger at America is that we were their first big disappointment.
While the American Revolution was not a social revolution like the French one that followed it, it most assuredly was a testing ground and was supported by the same international forces. Perhaps this is why the Federalists later created a government that their Jeffersonian opponents accused of being as bad as (or worse than) the British one we had defeated. Maybe they realized with horror just how they had been used and how close was their escape???
You are getting all bent out of shape of perceived conspiracies. Take it easy. Try to relax.
Thank you, and I will.
Well, I read a book called “The Boy Who Couldn’t Stop Washing His Hands”. It basically said that quite a lot of people are “obsessive”. CEOs for big companies are generally “obsessive”, for example. The book basically said that obsessiveness is not so bad, as long as the obsessed person doesn’t harm himself or anyone else, or doesn’t annoy people with his obsessiveness.
I have noticed that there are a whole lot of obsessive people on the internet. Some of them have their own obsessive websites, and others constantly argue with other people on internet message boards.
Now, the question of the moment is.... between the two of us, you and me, which of us is more obsessive than the other, and which is more open-minded?
and I resent you trying to convince me to believe what you believe.
ZC counters:
Does this mean you're opposed to chr*stian missionary activity, as this is what ever missionary does?
Oh, nonsense. I’ve been on many Christian medical mission trips to Latin American countries, and preaching was a fairly minor part of most of the trips. It was important, but it wasn’t “overdone”, and we provided much more medical care to the locals than we provided preaching.
Interestingly, one time four of our preachers had to sleep on the floor of a stable when we went to San Blas, Nicaragua. They said it was a humbling experience. And also interestingly, many of us learn more “religious stuff” from the local people than we do from our own preachers, since most of the locals are already Christians and are very family-oriented.
Some of our volunteers go down to be “missioned to” by the natives. It’s a very interesting phenomenon. Down in the villages, they don’t have any media, no abortion clinics, no punkers, no dopers, no cursing, etc. Their kids and teenagers are mature, while our teenagers (from the USA) tend to be somewhat immature and goofy. We probably learn more from them than they learn from us. A remote Latin American village is nothing at all like a Mexico “border town” or a large Latin American city.
Our preachers are very nice and present their points of view in mild 30-minute sermons, and that’s it. They hold night services if locals want to attend them. One particular mission group I went with doesn’t have many “converts” for a variety of reasons. One, the preachers aren’t pushy. Two, most of the people they preach to in Honduras and Nicaragua are already Christians. Three, local people who are secular prefer to remain secular, but they are not rude about it.
As I said, I think you’ve been the victim of too much anti-Christian propaganda. You’ve probably seen “Rain”, “Miss Sadie Thompson”, “The African Queen”, “The Mosquito Coast”, “Elmer Gantry”, “Inherit the Wind”, and lots of other anti-missionary/anti-Christian films. Have you actually ever gone on a missionary trip? I’ve been to Mexico with Catholics and to Central America with mixed groups of very nice and kind people. These are types of people you won’t see on network TV or in the movies, because they are literally blacklisted by the non-Christian media. Too many people in the national media today are atheists, agnostics, and other types of non-Christians.
Some other kinds of medical missionaries in Central America don’t even preach. One guy I met at the airport at San Pedro Sula (Honduras) told me that his group generally doesn’t say anything about their religious beliefs to the locals, unless the locals asked them.
Then you're wasting of time to tell me I've been conned....
Sometimes I think maybe I’m wasting my time telling you anything. You seem to know everything already. However, I’m interested in some of your historical background info about our “founding fathers”. I think you’ve researched that subject more than I have.
Perhaps you'd be surprised how the enemies of Israel, from across the religious and political spectrum, join hands on FreeRepublic.
I don’t see a whole lot of “enemies of Israel” here. I see some guys like you nagging, complaining, griping, fussing, and antagonizing many people, and sometimes that causes people to react in a rude way that might be perceived to be “anti Israel”. When they react, then you accuse them of being “an enemy of Israel”. The truth is, probably a lot of people here don’t think about Israel every day. We’ve got other things to think about.
You are making a big issue out of your own personal obsession by calling yourself “Zionist Conspirator”, and you are going around looking for an argument. You are purposely trying to antagonize people, so you can get mad at them and chew them out when they get antagonized.
One minute an atheist is laughing at me for believing in "bronze age mythology" and the next an anti-Jewish chr*stian is congratulating him because the Jews have been superceded.
Oh, heck, life is tough.
Say, why not calm down a while and not be so paranoid. I don’t think the Jews have been “superceded”. And I don’t think they are all alike. In America, I’ve found them to be just about as diverse as we Gentiles are.
Are you that naive? I mean rightwing Catholics who hold that the Founding Fathers were rationalist freemasons and that we should never have left the monarchy
What do you mean “we should never have left the monarchy”?? The British monarchy was Protestant.
Are you talking about descendants of French (Louisiana Territory) Catholics? Or descendants of Spanish/Mexican Territory Catholics? Or the few Catholics who lived in the original “British America”, the original 13 states? Out where I live, most of the Catholics are Hispanic. Their ancestors were never subjects of the British monarchy in the first place. Many of them think that Pope Juan Pablo II is Hispanic.
who hold that it is the responsibility of each and every State on earth to make Catholicism the official state religion and to see to it that its people practice it
Hmmm.... sounds like you are talking of “Vaticanites”. Some of the old time Italian Catholics in New Orleans are sort of like that. I think maybe Father Gunter is like that. But the Hispanic Catholics out here where I live tend to not be like that. My mission groups have found that the Catholics in Latin America accept us as “fellow Christians”.
"Judaeo-masonic conspiracy"
LOL! I’ve never hear of that one. Say, are you a disillusioned ex-Catholic?
....Jefferson.... Paine..... Washington....
Well, a lot of compromises were made in the old days so that the thirteen original colonies would all sign the Declaration of Independence and all accept the Constitution as one nation, filled with states of people who had a lot of diverse points of view. A lot of people had to make more compromises when we added Catholic Louisiana and Catholic Hispanic America. The state I live in, New Mexico, goes by the name given to this territory by the government of Mexico, in Mexico City, after Mexico became independent of Spain.
On that issue you and I are allies
OH NO! Then I must be wrong! (LOL, just joking.)
Brush up on your Bible reading. You are waaaaaayyyyy off the mark.
That's. . . Nevermind.
What were these guys, ex football coaches? "Hang on to my beliefes on one- hut, hut...NOW, GO OUT THERE AND KILL, KILL, KILLL...Get one for the Messia.
There is something else, and I hope all of you discover it before it's too late.
I love my fellow man and to see those of my condition torturing and killing each other is beyond my capacity to comprehend. It's hard enough to survive without that kind of opposition.
Turn the other cheek, love your enemies, the end is coming and it's inevidable so don't fight it. THIS IS GUN CONTROL!
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