Effectiveness of Various Ammunition

Self ^ | 10-17-2001 | Don Myers

[connectthedots]

So, how were things on Whidbey Island today?

[america76]

5.56 --- You can carry about twice as many too. They are much lighter.

[VRWC_Member428]

Bang!

[connectthedots]

For about $3-5,000, I could take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. There are about 4-5 other constitutional issues in regards to Washington statutes that could be raised and argued in the same case. Some of these are the constitutionality of:

1. The Washington State Bar Act

2. The unconstitutionality of appellate court commissioners. You can't imagine the chaos this would create in the Washington courts. Appellate court commissioners have been exercising unconstitutional powers for 30 yeares and every single decision they have made would be voided merely on application of any party to any case.

3. The constitutionality of the Commission on Judicial Conduct, which I refer to as the Commission for Judicial Coverups.

4. The constitutionality of an unwritten requirement that a voter pay a fee to file an appeal of a superior court determination of an election recall petition and is clearly in violation of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the U.S. of America.

5. Whether or not the document dated in 1889 and represented to the people of Washington to be the state Constitution is actually the Constitution of the State of Washington, rather than the document signed in 1878.

6. The constitutionality of requiring judges and justices to be attorneys and members of the Washington Bar Association.

7. Whether or not the practice of law is a priviledge or a basic Constitutional Right protected by the Constitution of the United States, or even the Washington Constitution. Did you know that the U.S. Supreme Court has never ruled on this issue, that some states at the founding of the USA outlawed the practice of law for a fee? Based on the current make-up of the U.S. Supreme Court, I would project that they would rule 5-4 or 6-3 that the practice of law is a basic Constitutional Right, and that at most, a state could require the passing of some sort of knowledge test such as a bar exam. A requirement to graduate from an "ABA approved law school is likely to be unsconstitutional under Amendments 1, 5, 6 and possible 9 to the U.S. Constitution.

8. The constitutionality of the Supreme Court and WSBA creating rules of procedure without having those rules enacted into law by the legislature. Failure to do so is in violation of the right of Washigton citizens to a republican form of government. Believe me, there are many other constitutional questions that could also be raised at the same time. A class action suit on the CCW fee would likely be very successful. If you know of any groups that would be willing to support some of these efforts, I could do all of them for only about $5,000/month, total, and get the job done in 6-9 months. Pretty cheap, huh? The legal arguments are not that difficult. There is a good reason I chose the screen name 'connectthedots'.

Do you know much about my ongoing legal battles against the corrupt Washington Courts and many other government officials.

[connectthedots]

Catch some Coho for me. I'll be going up to Oak Harbor in a few weeks. I can stop by either on the way up or the way back. LOL

[rockfish59]

personal attacks

be subtle. sort of like driving 30mph in a 25 zone. some lee-way is allowed. if it gets 'heavy' then take it to the 'personal reply'. 'ol 'L-D' likes to capitolize his name i think because he has 'shortcomings'! lol! i always get on his case. he says he's a '12th generation new zealander', like that's supposed to impress anyone. new zealand hates the USA too.

[rockfish59]

his heart rate must be 30 beats per minute! that is, he's a cool cookie!

[jedi]

How about contacting Bill Cox, the Heckmans and the Utterbacks? They'll be glad to know you're still around.

[connectthedots]

Are 2nd Amendment issues discussed around here much?

Does sh!t stink?

[Don Joe]

I've thought about that type situation (and the related Mozambique Drill), and wondered about the best "format". Do you know if he used 11-22-33, or 1-2-3-1-2-3 (or more likely, if the latter, 1-2-3-3-2-1)?

[VRWC_Member428]

Don Myers:

In the CCW course I took, the instructor gave a brief run-down of the types of ammunition. JakelopeBreeder already mentioned the various types, so I'll just say that for sheer stopping force, hollow points all the way. I've shot 1-gall milk jugs filled with water with .357 magnum hollow points. While they don't actually disappear, the water inside does 'explode' out, and there is a large tear to the rear of the jug where the bullet exited.

Another nice thing about hollow points is that they are safer. Not safer in a Joselyn Elders (remember her?) kind of way, but safer in that they deliver most of their energy when they hit a body. That way even if the bullet goes through, it won't go through much else. However, if you shot that same body with a full metal jacket, or possibly even a soft point, it would go through, and could also go through several layers of drywall into adjoining rooms (and even other houses)

One thing to note, however, is that if you miss with a hollow point, it won't expand once it hits drywall. The hole just gets plugged, and the bullet basically becomes a soft point. To give you an idea of how dangerous it can be when you miss, I once bought a sheet of drywall for testing purposes. I cut it into several small sections, and set them all up one behind the other. When I shot it with a .38 special wadcutter, the bullet embedded itself in the 13th (thirteenth) layer of drywall. Just think what a .357 or .44 Magnum cartridge would have done!

As far as brands, I haven't been shooting long enough, nor have I experamented much with different loads. For personal protection. I prefer to use Cor-Bon ammunition. As far as which calliber works best, all I know is that the military developed the .45 ACP round for the purpose of killing humans. So I figure that they know a lot about killing people, so that's what I want to get. (I still don't have enough money to buy the Kimber Compact CDP I want.)

---

RockFish59:

there's lots of wicked ammo out there. you can even make your own 'evil stuff'.

I would recommend against brewing home ammunition. In the CCW class I took, the instructor (a gun store salseman, not a cop) told us that brewing home loads for home defense is a bad idea. The reason is because if you end up going to court for some reason, the lawyer who is against you will try to convince a jury of 12 morons who have probably never shot a gun that you made those bullets for the sole purpose of killing somebody.

While hollow points are also designed to kill somebody, there is a very easy out if it comes to court. All you have to say is "That's what the gun store guy sold me." That weakens the case the other lawyer may try to make that you tried to use extra deadly ammunition to kill his client's relative.

The instructor used a good illustration to demonstrate this. There was this guy who re-loaded his ammunition. What he had in his gun was ball-ammo which he used at the gun range for making holes in paper targets. (Ball ammo is abut the least effective type of slug to kill somebody with) When this guy got home, he found his neighbor's teenage kid in his house robbing the place. He also had a gun. And so, the man shot this armed hooligan with the same ball plinking ammo which was still in his gun. Subsequently, a lawyer tried to make the case that he loaded his gun with this home brewed load for the purpose of killing his next door neighbor's kid.

So, just use manufactured cartridges for defense ammunition. You simply have to say that "This is what the gun store guy sold me."

[agitator]

In my opinion, no matter how you dress it up, a .32acp is not much better than a .22. In fact, about the only thing you can say about it is that it's slightly more reliable than a .22 because at least it's centerfire. Granted a .32 is better than nothing but you had better plan on shooting your opponent in the eye, because anywhere else is just going to piss him off. I speak from personal experience.

As far as the comment somebody made about armor piercing .223, it's green-tipped and a magnet will attract the tip of it. It punches much nicer holes in car bodies but will start fires if you shoot it around gasoline or brushy rocks because the tip causes sparks. I shot a gasoline powered chainsaw with it once and the explosion was right out of Hollywood. A run-of-the-mill lead core round wouldn't have done that. Makes for a nice display when you shoot up a car at twilight though. The Rangers in Somalia said that the armor piercing ammo went right through the Somalis nice and clean and didn't chew up the target like the old M193 ammo would have. I tend to believe it. They would have rather had non-armor piercing ammo for use on soft targets.

 

[RLK]

First let's look at full metal jacket. Just a lead core with (usually) a copper jacket surrounding it. Typical military ammo. It goes straight through the target in pretty much the same shape it entered. Its primary purpose is to wound. Why? Because a wounded guy needs more attention and resources than a dead guy.

------------------

The reason is the Geneva convention outlawed dum dums.

[lavaroise]

Russians have converted their AKs to AK104s with .223 ammo. They say it is better.

[the catfish]

I would not own a s&w.

[STD]

Dear Don,

Shouldn't you post this question on Weekend News Today? LOL

Agape, Mike

[Lurker]

The 168 grain BTHP Federal Match Grade is outstandingly accurate and packs a hell of a wallop.

It's expensive to buy, but if you load your own you can save quite a bit of dinero.

Freepmail me if you want some starting load info if you are a handloader.

Take care,

L

[Shooter 2.5]

All of the urban legends aside, I suggest that you take a look at Evan Marshall's book Street Stoppers. Evan Marshall is a police officer, who for 15+ years, has gathered data from acutual gun fights and reported on ammunition that was effective with one shot stops [OSS]. To balance out what he said, here is the link to a web page that seems to take issue on his reports:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Between the two reports, I think you can find some realistic information past shooting phone books and water jugs.

I carry a Springfield Armory V10 Ultra-Compact 1911A1 with Federal 165 grain Hyda-Shoks in a Galco Royal Guard holster under a large t-shirt. My Draw time is 1.6 seconds hitting a styrofoam plate at 20 feet.