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War has its roots in the Crusades: U.S. has been drawn into a conflict that began 1,000 years ago
Knight Ridder Newspapers (via Buffalo News) ^ | 10/14/01 | BOB DAVIS

Posted on 10/16/2001 8:12:34 AM PDT by SocialMeltdown

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To: Cernunnos
It's a war of cultures. "Tribalism vs. modernism" as you say - but it's really the West versus Islam. The West used to be known as Christendom, and the values and freedoms which we in the West cherish are the cultural artifacts of Christendom. The other ideologies the West has subsequently developed - Socialism, National Socialism, Communism, etc. do not possess these qualities.
61 posted on 10/16/2001 3:33:54 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: aimhigh
The east verses west conflict can best be exemplified by the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. It was there that King Leonidas and a few hundred of his elite Spartan palace guard held off the hoards of Xerxes, the Persian King, for three days. This allowed time for the collective armies of Greece to assemble. This conflict was neither Judeo-Christian or Muslim. It was a fundamental clash of the underlying ideology and philosophy of the east and the west. Then as now the superior culture will prevail.
62 posted on 10/16/2001 3:50:07 PM PDT by 11bravo
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To: The_Reader_David; wideawake
Hasn't the western Romantic movement always exhibited favor towards Islam? Its simplified creed initially appears similar to that of the Deists, and its fusion of religion and state is arguably mirrored in Rousseau. I have heard that even the Romantic nazis were attracted to the creed.
63 posted on 10/16/2001 4:18:05 PM PDT by Dumb_Ox
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To: mercy
You are very ignorant in claiming that Arab monotheism began with Mohammed. A significant part of the Arab world was either Orthodox Christian or Monophysite Christian in Mohammed's time. Archeological digs have found Orthodox Churches on the shores of the Persian Gulf. My bishop's family came from a valley in Syria whose Arabic name means "The Valley of the Christians" because its in habitants have held out against the Jihad from the beginning. St. Ephriam the Syrian and St. John of Damascus were Arabs. The Nestorian Church (predating Mohammed by ~300 years) still exists in Iraq.

Mohammed himself consciously rejected the Gospel which many of his fellow-Arabs had embraced. He had a Christian wife, Mary, whom he abused for refusing to convert to his false doctrine (perhaps we should venerate her as a confessor). I have said it before on other threads, at its roots, Islam is antichrist in the sense the Holy Evangelist and Apostle John the Theologian used the word in his epistles.

64 posted on 10/16/2001 10:53:11 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: wideawake
I do not know the derivation of the word Allah. It is, however, plainly simply the Arabic word for God. It is used in Arabic Christian texts predating Mohammed. That it is not a Jewish name for God is neither here nor there: neither "God" nor "Dieu" is "YHWY" or "Adonai" or "Elohim". either.
65 posted on 10/16/2001 10:58:36 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: Dumb_Ox
Alfred Rosenberg, Hitler's chosen ideological theoretician, praised Islam for its anti-Semitism (really, anti-Judaism) and characterized Islam as the "manly religion, while Christianity is the womanish".

He felt that a truly Aryan religion would fulfill the exact same cultural functions in Europe that Islam did in the Middle East, forming a theological rationale for total war and conquest, the liquidation of unassimilable populations and the propagation of the race (through numerous wives as breeding machines, etc.).

66 posted on 10/17/2001 5:03:02 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: aimhigh
If it wasn't for the crusades, we'd all be speaking Arabic now.

Amen. Too bad they didn't have a homestead act on the middle east right after they took Jerusalem. Bin Laden would have been Ozzie Lindstrom now, a Protestant electrician in the Christian city of Urbania, (Kabul), raising four kids and watching his mutual funds on line.
67 posted on 10/17/2001 5:30:14 AM PDT by farmer18th
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To: lady lawyer
Thank you so much for this. The Bible is the blueprint of life and tells us what has happened and what will happen. In fact, we are just reliving the history of old.
68 posted on 10/17/2001 5:37:37 AM PDT by gulfcoast6
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To: ScreamingFist
Bump for a good article and interesting thread.
69 posted on 10/17/2001 6:42:58 AM PDT by freefly
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To: wideawake
Adonai and Elohim are not proper nouns or names, they are common nouns or titles. Even the Bible uses the same words to refer to other gods, false pagan gods. (I'm not sure whether Elohim is used this way, I think it's restricted to the One True God.)

As others have pointed out, allah is and was the common noun in Arabic for god. Capitalized as Allah, it is a direct translation of our word God. What difference does it make that a term formerly used to refer to a pagan god is now applied to God? The terms used in the NT for God were titles or common nouns used to refer to the pagan gods. Does that mean that the NT somehow was not referring to the One True God?

Similarly, Mohammed makes very plain that when he uses the term Allah he means the One True God Creator of the Universe. I happen to not agree with his claim to inspiration by this God, but he certainly was not referring to any other.

70 posted on 10/17/2001 5:37:45 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: wideawake
This boring antiCatholic propaganda is so ridiculous and makes you look so uneducated and backward. Why don't you read up on the slaughter of German Catholics by Protestant armies during the Thirty Years' War.

This war started as an aggressive attempt on the part of Catholics to roll back Protestant gains and essentially wipe outsProtestantism. It escalated into possibly the worst war in history, despite serious competition, eventually reducing the population of Germany by 50-75%. Both sides massacred opponents. By the end of the war, the "Protestant" side was led by the Catholic French. It is just silly to talk about this crucial conflict as mainly about Protestants attacking Catholics. Essentially everybody attacked everybody else and massacred them. The most famous massacre of the war was by the Imperial Catholic army. They killed every living thing in the Protestant city of Magdeburg.

Or the massacres perpetrated by the Calvinist Cromwell in Catholic Ireland.

Cromwell was not a nice person. Much of the fury of his army was due to their belief that they were avenging massacres of Protestants by the Irish. These massacres were probably not as widespread as Cromwell's army believed, but they certainly happened, with apparently about 3,000 English settlers slaughtered. Cromwell's massacres have been greatly exaggerated by Irish sentimentalists. Much greater damage was done to the native Irish by the Penal Laws which were enforced for the next couple of centuries.

Or the slaughter of Polish Catholics by the Protestant Teutonic Knights.

I'm really curious about this one. What are you talking about? The Teutonic Knights were a Catholic religious order similar to the Knights of Malta. They conquered an extensive area on the Baltic. Eventually one of the their grandmasters converted to Protestantism and secularized the Order, which basically went out of existence. Their domain formed the center of what eventually became East Prussia.

But most of the killing of Poles was done while they were still Catholic. They pretty well exterminated the pagan Prussians and warred against the Poles, claiming they weren't really Catholic.

Or the church-burnings by the Protestant Know-Nothings in the US.

Or the Star Chamber and Tyburn in England. Or the burning of Servetus.

Catholics were persecuted to various degrees in England, there's no denying that. However, for most of this time they were adherents to a foreign power that really was aggressively attempting to overthrow the English monarchy. They were viewed by other Englishmen, rightly or wrongly, in much the same way that Commies were viewed in America during the 50s and for much the same reasons.

Servetus was not a Catholic. His views were considered by both Catholics and Protestants. He was actually under sentence to be burned by a Catholic court when the Genevans caught him. He was burned by Protestants because they caught him before the Catholics did. I cannot think of another case of Protestants burning someone for heresy. The Spanish Inquisition and other Catholic institutions did it for centuries.

Protestants have committed more than their fair share of atrocities and far more Catholics have died at Protestant hands than the other way around.

I'd be interested in seeing your statistics on this. With the primary exception of Ireland, most Catholic minorities were comparatively well-treated in Protestant countries after the first flush of enthusiasm had diminished. In most Catholic countries, there were centuries of persecution of Protestants.

Actually, I don't consider myself either Protestant or Catholic, although as a non-Catholic professed Christian I assume you would class me as Protestant. I wonder why you so angrily reject the possibility that "your people" may have done some evil in the past, believing that it was God's will. My understanding is that Pope John Paul II has no such difficulty.

71 posted on 10/17/2001 6:21:39 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: Restorer
In Post # 71: His views were considered by both Catholics and Protestants to be heretical.

Sorry about that.

72 posted on 10/17/2001 9:07:16 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: *Clash of Civilizatio
Bumping to Clash of Civilizations list.
73 posted on 11/28/2001 4:48:48 PM PST by denydenydeny
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