"NYC is NOT Babylon! It NEVER has been! This is just the latest theory amongst the "tossed to and fro" crowd."
Ditto. I'm getting sick and tired of "replacement theology." The replacement theologians call the Christian (predominantly gentile) church "Israel," then - of course - want to appropriate the promises to Israel, but of course none of the judgements. And of course, America is "Babylon."
It is a self-centered, myopic view that believes God's dealings with man began with 20th century Christians. Not only that, but it utterly ignores the fact that the Book of Revelation is based on O.T. books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, and especially Daniel, to name a few. In fact, if you look at Daniel 12 compared to Revelation 12, they look almost like a thought-for-thought transcription!
We are living in God's dispensation of GRACE, and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that during this period of GRACE, God will withold judgement until He pours it out during the Great Tribulation, which is called the time of "Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah.)
The next judgement to befall mankind from God will come then, and the Final judgement will come at the "Great White Throne Judgement," at the end of the age.
These attacks were the result of man's free - if evil - will towards other men. They did not come from God, and I wish so-called pastors would stop presuming to speak for God on this score. They are libeling Him.
"Ditto. I'm getting sick and tired of "replacement theology." The replacement theologians call the Christian (predominantly gentile) church "Israel," then - of course - want to appropriate the promises to Israel, but of course none of the judgements. And of course, America is "Babylon."
Tell me about it! Yes we have Armstrong and his insane babblings ... . Clancy is becoming some sort of a prophet for his nonfiction ramblings and on and on it goes. It never dawns on them to pray for guidance and READ the Bible for themselves.
"It is a self-centered, myopic view that believes God's dealings with man began with 20th century Christians. Not only that, but it utterly ignores the fact that the Book of Revelation is based on O.T. books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, and especially Daniel, to name a few. In fact, if you look at Daniel 12 compared to Revelation 12, they look almost like a thought-for-thought transcription!
ABSOLUTELY! Our Jewish friends can easily follow what is going on in the Old Testament. Consisitent prophecy is throughout the Bible. In fact, it'shard to miss.
"We are living in God's dispensation of GRACE, and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that during this period of GRACE, God will withold judgement until He pours it out during the Great Tribulation, which is called the time of "Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah.)"
Yes ... I'm just waiting for the peace declaration ... .
"The next judgement to befall mankind from God will come then, and the Final judgement will come at the "Great White Throne Judgement," at the end of the age."
Indeed! As saved individuals we will have to account.
"These attacks were the result of man's free - if evil - will towards other men. They did not come from God, and I wish so-called pastors would stop presuming to speak for God on this score. They are libeling Him. "
You are sooooo right! Well we both know that there IS a falling away from the Word of God. This too is in prophecy. If ONLY people stop being spiritually lazy, ask for guidance and READ it. Instead the response is "Changing the subject ... when pressed for some validation of this nonsense.
Truly it is a pleasure to see you. Feel free to e-mail me. I always enjoying hearing from you. I don't always catch your postings.
Me: "...is there a reason why He would respond differently to us if we did this?"
I wish you would have included the rest of my thought. Since you didn't, I'll state it again later in my reply with more emphasis.
You: Yes. Look at the context of II Chronicles 7 again:
"When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
The Lord here is telling Solomon that when HE judges the land and people, that if His people...etc.
I am not objecting to Him making the judgment call or the fact that He is doing the judging. He makes the ultimate call but did you notice what He is seeking? Repentance!
Since when does He punish those who repent? He doesn't when it is sincere. He sees into our hearts. Are you suggesting that this avenue is only available to our Jewish friends and a different standard applies to non-Jewish people or that this was only applicable in Biblical times and not today? Isn't turning our face towards Him and repenting what He wants most? If it isn't you'll need to show me where it says the in the Bible.
By putting Him first, WE will be changed and do His will rather than our will. This is what Christianity is all about. Jesus put the will of His Father first.
Why do you suggest otherwise? When Jesus took our place for punishment, the standard is now the same for all. Our Jewish friends will not agree on Jesus being the Messiah but as we agreed earlier, there is enough information in the Bible for them to know what's going on.
You: "The last outpouring of God's wrath (judgment) on mankind was at Calvary, which Christ took on the cross for all of us. "
Jesus took on our punishment. The wages of sin is death. Jesus took our place since no one but Jesus was able to live up to God's laws. His judgment was Jesus on the cross otherwise we'd all go to hell. It was a mixture of love for us imperfect mortals and wrath that He sacrificed His only begotten Son so that we could have a chance at eternal life. Recall,
John 3:16
For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall have eternal life.
Titus 1:2
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
You: If we are indeed in the dispensation of God's grace, and the next period of God's judgment on man won't come until the Great Tribulation, then the we no longer require the Temple in which to offer sacrifices and prayers to cause God to heal that which He has not caused.
We are under grace but do you honestly believe that till the tribulation takes place that God hasn't exercised punishment or judgment on people etc.? I sure don't believe that! We have free will. Since He loves us He will chastise us at times. Similar to parent. A parent that loves their child will put their emotions aside and punish whereas a parent who doesn't won't.
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth ... This is applicable to Christians today. I'm personally experienced it. I'd often wonder what could He do to me if I did "x". Sure enough, something out of the blue that was unpleasant would happen to me. It was like clockwork and I can depend on it.
Our Jewish friends are not making sacrifices because they lack a Temple for it. The Temple Mount folks are trying to rebuild it. God didn't cause sin but His healing is still needed. It's ALWAYS needed. So punishment of God is ongoing and not on hold till the Tribulation.
You: In other words, those who believe in Christ are no longer under God's judgment, and those who do not believe have already been judged. No amount of prayer by believers or non-believers will change what God has already done through Christ.
Those who believe and put their faith in Jesus are saved however those who are saved will be judged at the white throne and works will be tested. Those who are unsaved will receive damnation. Prayers are not meant to change what has already been done by Jesus. I'm concerned about this statement:
"No amount of prayer by believers or non-believers will change what God has already done through Christ."
What will please God is when people turn to Him. The greatest commandment is to Love God with all you heart. What I think you are missing is that God is love as well as one of judgement and wrath when people are disobedient. God didn't step away from us since the crucifixion just waiting to condemn us during the Tribulation. God wishes that not ONE would perish. Of course some will.
You: "I think anyone reading this passage needs to read it in the context of God's judgment."
It is VERY important to read a verse or passage in its proper context however you are overlooking the character and nature of God. You are looking at the literal context of who is being spoken to but missing the big picture.
You: "And if anyone can see something I'm missing here, please feel free to speak up. :)"
Okay ... you asked for it ;) . Let's forget for a moment who said what to whom and concentrate on the character and nature of God. The above is a disjointed hodgepodge so I'll try to clean it up and make my point.
While it's admirable to know all the specifics of who said what to whom there was a bigger point behind it. The Old Testament in particular allowed us to understand the nature and character of God. We see what pleases him and what didn't. We see how what He wants from us often conflicts with human nature. We see how people are blessed when they put their faith in Him. The Law was merely God's way of highlighting how imperfect we are. No one but Jesus was able to live it perfectly.
To spare you a long dialogue, I will post the words of someone else who emphasizes God's nature and character.
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... God's actions change in response to a change in a person's actions. For example, referring to the people of Nineveh, Jonah 3:10 says, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not" (KJV). The question becomes: what is the source of the change in God's actions? This verse shows it was the PEOPLE who changed and that change brought about a change in God's actions.
In dealing with this issue Millard Erickson says, "His [God's] reaction to our every deed is determined by his unchanging nature." 8 God must punish evil for He is a just God, but His desire is to give mercy which, in justice, He can only give upon repentance, a change in the heart of a person. This is the message He came to give us in His Son, Jesus. The Septuagint translates nacham into two Greek words, Metamellomai and Metanoeo, 9 which are used a total of forty times in the New Testament. 10 Thirty-two of these talk about the need for people to repent, the results of repenting, and the results of a lack of repentance. 11 The majority of these verses are spoken by Jesus, "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17).
God's desire is to give mercy and grace, but His unchanging nature requires justice. For that, He gave us His Son who paid the price for our sins on the cross and rose again that we might one day come "to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God" (Ephesians 3:19). "
Other verses in the New Testament also point to a God whose nature does not change. Hebrews 13:8 says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." This verse places in the past and the future the same Savior we have today. To give an even greater perspective to God's unchanging nature we can turn to Hebrews 1:10-12, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." In the midst of our world falling apart and things constantly changing around us we find God is steadfast, He remains the same. Not only does He not change, but, "Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath" (Hebrews 6:17).
The conclusion we can draw from this examination is that God's nature does not change but rather we see different aspects of that nature depending on our relationship with God. God "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4). But to gain that knowledge we need to repent, change the direction we are traveling, and come to Him. We can take great comfort in knowing that God's nature does not change because that means such aspects of His nature like love, grace, mercy and truth will not change. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6).
url: http://www.axtrin.speedhost.com/resources/immutability.html#Immutability
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I haven't read the rest of the website but I am in agreement with the above. More can be said but this is sufficient.
Another statement that bothered me was something like praying doesn't matter. It does matter! We should pray because God uses prayer to accomplish His ends just as God uses preaching to accomplish them. Prayer is not a means by which we change God. It is a means by which He changes us. It is a privilege to be used by God in any way He desires.
God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. We are not. We can change our ways because we have free will.
It's nice to know who said what to whom however knowing God's (nature & character) and serving Him is what He consistently desires from all of us - in Biblical times and today! The only way to know Him is to read what "is written" and take it to heart.
I hope you tell me I misunderstood you. .