Posted on 09/19/2001 10:47:16 AM PDT by XBob
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
[47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
[47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
[47.7] O you who believe ! if you help (the cause of) Allah, He will help you and make firm your feet.
[47.8] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is destruction and He has made their deeds ineffective.
[47.9] That is because they hated what Allah revealed, so He rendered their deeds null.
[47.10] Have they not then journeyed in the land and seen how was the end of those before them: Allah brought down destruction upon them, and the unbelievers shall have the like of it.
[47.11] That is because Allah is the Protector of those who believe, and because the unbelievers shall have no protector for them.
[47.12] Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.
[47.13] And how many a town which was far more powerful than the town of yours which has driven you out: We destroyed them so there was no helper for them.
[47.14] What! is he who has a clear argument from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work is made fairseeming: and they follow their low desires.
[47.15] A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.
[47.16] And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge: What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires.
[47.17] And (as for) those who follow the right direction, He increases them in guidance and gives them their guarding (against evil).
[47.18] Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?
[47.19] So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding.
[47.20] And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!
[47.21] Obedience and a gentle word (was proper); but when the affair becomes settled, then if they remain true to Allah it would certainly be better for them.
[47.22] But if you held command, you were sure to make mischief in the land and cut off the ties of kinship!
[47.23] Those it is whom Allah has cursed so He has made them deaf and blinded their eyes.
[47.24] Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.
[47.25] Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.
[47.26] That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets.
[47.27] But how will it be when the angels cause them to die smiting their backs.
[47.28] That is because they follow what is displeasing to Allah and are averse to His pleasure, therefore He has made null their deeds.
[47.29] Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring forth their spite?
[47.30] And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of (their) speech; and Allah knows your deeds.
[47.31] And most certainly We will try you until We have known those among you who exert themselves hard, and the patient, and made your case manifest.
[47.32] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Apostle after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.
[47.33] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle, and do not make your deeds of no effect.
[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
[47.35] And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.
[47.36] The life of this world is only idle sport and play, and if you believe and guard (against evil) He will give you your rewards, and will not ask of you your possessions.
[47.37] If He should ask you for it and urge you, you will be niggardly, and He will bring forth your malice.
[47.38] Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.
Im not sure, but it seems to me that you argue ..1) that we have not heretofore been sufficiently provoked to justify our striking back at them,
The short answer is, yes, if I thought it would be an effective act, that achieved anything I wanted at reasonable cost, I'd be in favor of it--But it is not, whether you think terrorists are basic to Islam, or, as I do, peripheral, and promoted by sinister western interests. This will not be an act that suppresses terrorism--it will be an act that ushers in more of it. At base, I think I agree with XBob, physically taking over all of Islam, and running their schools and press for them for two generations will be the least expensive effective act we could manage, short of the genocide of Islam. You think we can stomach or afford, or succeed, at that kind of comprehensive thought policing? This presently trumpeted notion, which seems to be gaining currency, that a "measured" response will make Islam so fearfully respectful, that "they" will put an end to this virulent anti-western bombast & terrorism, is the most mind-scroggling mis-estimation of the workings of the human heart as any wistful pink-bunnies and snowcones thinking I have ever seen in my life, outside of a feminist enclave at a PTA meeting I once attended.
There is serious brain damage loose in the land on this subject. On the one hand, we have zealous fundamentalists to battle, and our best thinking, in support of this latest half-baked military adventure, is that it will somehow provoke the "moderate" Islam states into suppressing the stream of consciousness that promotes it. I've got news: zealots are not moderatable by "measured" force of arms--moderates are hardly any more so. People who promote this point of view ought to be institutionalized--instead, they run our presses and government.
plus 2) we're not absolutely positive who did this, coupled with 3)
Yea. Well, obviously, a bunch of 30-40 year old, well-off minor playboys, with the brains, westernization, and patience to get pilot licenses, and the propensity to party hearty, who all fly planes into buildings in conjunction, are a natural sole result of islamic fundamentalist zeal. Or, they were talked into feeling this way by Ben Laden. If western fundamentalist christians were acting like responsible islamic adults for 10 years or so, before dropping hijacked jetliners on Mecca, would you be equally accepting? Hey, this thing stinks, and when something stinks, you ought to take some time to think about it.
In response, in summary I would say (perhaps I speak for others too?).. 1) we have been sufficiently provoked and our response should be "measured" to respond in kind. Many of us dont want to wait for the next act, which of course you argue isnt coming, or isnt going to be large, or may not come at all if we call off the dogs .. (I think youve said all 3?)
No. I'd guess further damage is presently scheduled in the pipeline, and will be perpetrated. And we should try hard to prevent it or, probably more effective, minimize it's results here, but until we are ready to revamp or destroy Islam, military adventures short of that can only serve to accelerate the problem down the road. We are getting ready to perform a highly irrational act for heavily charged emotional reasons that are easy to understand, but shouldn't be mistaken for rational justification.
You merely have to destroy the network and frighten the host states into controlling their populations. It can be done, its been done before, it just requires some "re-education" as well as Force ( of course)
Good grief--is that how we would respond if colors were reversed? Can the Suadis control what the Islam press and churches do in Bombay or Christchurch? Could Islam pursuade us, with a "measured" military response, say, in Alabama, to throttle the anti-Islamic rhetoric coming from churches in Canada? Either they are fundamentalist zealots, who arise from fundamentalist zealotry we are fighting or they are not. Which is it?
nothing could have been done about it , its out of our hands
Nothing we'd be willing to do that would be effective using our military can be done about it, at present. I am sorry for that. Do you think pretending it isn't so is much saner than what the Islamic zealots are doing?
In all fairness, I guess if this was '41 and the Japanese had just bombed Pearl Harbor, youd be in favor of a WAR type, response.. Right ? (or would you be talking about how FDR set this up, and it all about trade routes and oil, and hegemony and the WAR Dept,and thats as far as they can reach, and who gives 2 spits about Pearl Harbor? Its not even a US State!!)
To meaningfully threaten a country's existence as an aggressor state, you need a large standing army. Japan had one. Islamic zealots is shadows on the wall, not an aggressor country with a large standing army, whose identity we have no doubts about. Washington's advice is still the best: if their troops aren't marching on your capital, stay home and clean your gun.
I submit to you that it is very peculiar that even now we are not taking far cheaper, non-military steps to make our homeland and our lives more defensible. Bubonic shots, Anthrax drills, beefing up safety shelter medical&support supplies and security drills a' la' WWII, would be far better bang for the buck than foreign military adventures. Ask yourself why we aren't doing this. Is it because somebody wants us left intentionally vulnerable while they go overseas to stir up hornet's nests?
...
...in just the same way we were just now left vulnerable in the skies above Washington, despite substantial warnings arising from ours', and others' intelligence community, some of these warnings locked onto specific of these individuals? And the one from France specific as to the form of attack? Public domain information allowed the Pittburg passengers to figure out what was going on. And much better public information was available to the CIA and it's computers. This scenario is not believable.
I have several predictions to make in support of my supposedly paranoid contention that the desire to invade Afganistan is the cart, and the terrorist acts were the horse.
1) Any fast attempt toward handing over Ben Laden will immediately provoke invasion.
2) If a natural blunder doesn't kill a bunch of photogenic Afgani civilians in the immediate invasion, one will happen shortly after occupancy.
3) We will be just sufficiently vulnerable to whatever the response is (my guess is Anthrax, it has a lot of advantages you wouldn't at first think about, for my postulated shadow government.) to justify general marshall law, and the invocation of the EEOC's to unleash FEMA on us, but not much more so. Anthrax's scope is very easy to control, as it isn't extra-ordinarily infectuous.
Small huh?
On the Dennis Prager show this morning, just a couple od hours ago, he cited a poll in the Middle East which determined that 50% of all Muslims approve of the Mass Murder last week.
How many Muslims did you say are in the area?
Now, you can try and whitewash that all you want...
Finally, about that reward posted in Pakistan, offering a bounty for every American killed.... and a good one too; if I remember right, about $6000 a head...
Please explain that. Better yet, go check it out personally.
Do you think we should have left those belief systems intact?
We entered WWII because our shores, and therefore, our sovraignity, were palpably threatened by aggressor nations with believably threatening large standing armies. Threats to sovraignity are the traditional justification for a war, and are ok by me to go to war over. Murderous acts by non-armies are civil matters, no matter how serious.
So, to repeat my question: are we ready to occupy all of Islam to revise their thinking? This "measured" response nonsense isn't going to buy anything but lots more dead americans.
I must agree with you, that says it all.
That you need to define everything as a struggle of faith puts the lie to your protestations that this is not a religious war.
For all you know, I am agnostic.
Ignore it or respond, as you wish.
I suggest you read a book on US history, any book, even a liberal book of politicially correct US history lies.
Typical loser "progressive" out of context response.
I invite every one to visit post #69 for themselves and see the rest of my statement.
Sort of like the Spanish did in Central and South America for their version of Christianity.
We're just going to have to disagree about that one. We're approaching about one fifth of all deaths received in the Korean War, with more to come, if we do nothing whatsoever. Amorphous opponent or not; I dont see this as a "civil matter".
So, to repeat my question: are we ready to occupy all of Islam to revise their thinking?
I think we have to be ready to swap out governments and replace them with one of our choosing, and pressure Host States to eradicate the vile propaganda machines in their respective countries
Japan and Germany were occupied countries. We're not going to be able to do that accross the board, obviously. Can we force Saudi and Egypt to clamp down on and crush and outlaw the nutcrackers that spread their vile message to their children? I would hope so, but I could understand your scepticism. I would say its not going to be easy, and it will require all kinds of "pressure".
But we cant do "nothing". IMO.
You must be joking. I'm not going to respond to that except to say that you should reconsider the events of September 11 and read a bit more history.
I've come to believe that our course of action in this conflict will be determined against the backdrop of a single question: Do you believe that these people have the capability of acquiring a weapon of mass destruction and the will to use it against us?
It pretty much boils down to that. If you believe the answer is "yes," as I do, then you must consider that the lives of 10,000,000 to 30,000,000 of your countrymen at stake. In fact, they are in far more imminent danger than they ever were in WWII. Therefore, we must at least consider a response on the same order as our response to Hitler.
If, on the other hand, you choose to believe that our enemies lack the capability or the will to detonate a nuke in one or more of our cities, your response will be very different. Calls for "moderation," "changes in policies," etc.
I've come to believe that our course of action in this conflict will be determined against the backdrop of a single question: Do you believe that these people have the capability of acquiring a weapon of mass destruction and the will to use it against us?
I am pretty sure they already have at least anthrax here, prepped and ready to go. If you know how to operate a petri dish, and an aerosol pump, and don't mind dying of anthrax (which is obviously not going to be a problem), you have all the technological and logistic prowess needed in your average kitchen and lawn shed to infect the water supply of a major city.
It pretty much boils down to that. If you believe the answer is "yes," as I do, then you must consider that the lives of 10,000,000 to 30,000,000 of your countrymen at stake. In fact, they are in far more imminent danger than they ever were in WWII. Therefore, we must at least consider a response on the same order as our response to Hitler.
Uh huh. And where is that best done? In Afganistan? Bullturds. Where is my government-supplied anthrax vaccination? Until I get offered mine, I'm assuming priorities are other than the ostensible ones I'm seeing.
Capturing Ben Laden has very low priority in that regard. It will make everyone feel loads better, but it's all symbolic flash and glitz insofar as actually making me any safer goes. This supposed "measured" response peace bonus is, as I have suggested above, science fiction based on an obvious mis-comprehension about human motivation, which I'll adumbrate: We assume that third world Islamics are like us: eager only to watch re-runs of Laverne and Shirley, and collect our Social Security. Solders in this country used to give up their lives gladly in defense of freedom. Can you imagine someone eager to die in defense of Social Security? Our proposed "measured" attempts to make Islam tamp down it's own rhetoric would work on us. It will have the effect of a fart on a hurricane in countries that produce people willing to ride planes to their deaths' to wound an infidel.
The attack we just suffered was put in place several years ago--this supposed "measured" response peace bonus will have no effect on what we're scheduled to get hit with for the next several years. Do you think we should have started in Argentina to fight Hitler? Ben Laden's troops are already in place, here. There's no urgency respecting the national interest about capturing him this second.
But we cant do "nothing". IMO.
Yes we can. And we should if it's the least harm option. There is plenty, with an historical record of being effective--that we could be doing here with a great deal better bang for the buck compared to mounting a foreign war--and aren't, focused as we are on capturing Ben Laden.
We entered WWII because our shores were threatened..."
You must be joking.
Trust me on this. If your warships are sunk in your ports by a country with a huge, active standing army that's been occupying other countries, your shores are threatened.
What happens the next time? Osama bin Laden probably already possesses several suitcase nukes
===
I didn't think you wanted to be further embarrased by repeating your hateful inane response, however, since you insist, I will post your whole response:
--------
"Incredible as it may sound, you Mensa graduates have managed to miss the fact that The US has never once gone to war with anyone, nor issued a fatwah for insulting Christianity.
The fact that millions of animals masquerading as people have done so and continue to do so in the name of Islam, also apparently has escaped your notice. "
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