KISS THE NOTION OF SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE GOODBYE!!!

FR | 09/15/01 | ServesURight

[charlesc290]

was he talking about religion.......or in the aspect of doing good againt evil.........imho.......he was refering to showing love rather then hate

[charlesc290]

against*

[epow]

The vast majority of Americans disagree with what he said

I didn't see or hear the Pat Robertson program on which Falwell made the statements which you maintain most Americans disagree with. I have gathered from FR posts and from brief excerpts on other TV programs that he named abortion, pornography, homosexual practices, and sexual promiscuity as sins for which God may be lifting the hedge of protection which he has wrapped around America until now.

I can't help but wonder, why would a Christian or Jew who believes the Judeo/Christian scriptures were authored and given to us by God not believe those practices to be offensive and abhorrent to God? Since His word describes each and every practice named by Falwell as heinous, wicked, evil sins, and warns all who practice them that the end result of that practice is eternal destruction unless the one doing those things repents, why should it be controversial to suggest that God is seriously displeased with a nation which openly approves those things and protects those who practice them by both legislation and judicial ruling? If it is true that the vast majority of Americans disagree with Falwell, then I take that to indicate that those people do not believe what God has plainly said about those sins.

I believe, as apparently Mr. Falwell also does, that the American people have been beguiled by liberal secular humanists working through public schools, universities, apostate pulpits, the media, and the entertainment industry, among other institutions, into accepting as harmless and normal practices which until recent decades have been recognized to be sinful and/or immoral by virtually all people of all cultures and religions. Today, anyone who says or believes otherwise is condemned as a judgemental, mean-spirited, hate-filled bigot by those who defend those practices. If that were true, which it isn't, that would mean that the kind and gentle Jesus is also a judgemental, mean-spirited, hate-filled bigot. Anyone who claims, as some do, that Jesus excused or overlooked sinful practices because of his love for the sinner either hasn't read the Gospels, or has and is deliberately misrepresenting his person and character.

I realize that non-believers are not impressed by quotes from scripture, but nevertheless I will cite one verse which I believe is relevant to Falwell's statement.

Ga.6 v7, "Do not be misled; remember that you can't ignore God and get away with it: a man will reap just what he sows. If he sows to please his own sinful desires he will plant seeds of evil and he will reap a harvest of spiritual decay and death;" That doesn't necessarily mean that God Himself actively causes that death, it may also mean that God allows the predictable results of sin to be fully realized.

Since 1973 America has sown the deaths of 38 million innocents in it's abortion mills. If nations are held to the same standard as men in the quoted verse, as I believe they are, our nation must reap a harvest of death if she does not repent of her sins and return to the God of her fathers.

You don't have to agree with God's word, and you certainly don't have to agree with me. But the word of God has proven itself over several millenia to be true and reliable. I don't want to see our beautiful, wonderful America suffer, any more so than the weeping prophet Jeremiah wanted to see ancient Israel suffer the fate he was sent to foretell. But I am convinced that God is just and that he fervently desires that justice be done on Earth. I don't believe He will tolerate forever the ultimate injustice of aborting innocent human lives without withdrawing at least some portion of the protection he has provided to America until now.

[RightThinkinDood]

You learned the wrong lesson from these acts of terror. They show the wisdom in separation of church and state, and the danger of combining them.

Think about it.

[Big Guy and Rusty 99]

And I have a gun to protect me from people like you.

We do not want a theocracy. We want to be able to openly celebrate God.

[Proud2BAmerican]

They favor a theocracy -- not rule by the people but rule by Those Who Know the Will of God.

----

I sincerely doubt that any Christian would favor a theocracy. In fact, I'd challenge you to find and name anyone who will come on here and claim that they do. I've never heard it certainly.

What most Christians DO want though, is a government that operates under traditional Judeo/Christian principles -- informed by Christian morality. Doesn't mean you have to believe in God, Jesus -- but the laws of the land will reflect that morality. Sodomy is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Pre-marital sex is wrong. Abortion is wrong. Contraception is wrong. People are individually responsible for their own actions. Things of that nature. No one is advocating that the state control or determine matters of faith. But I think most Christians would like to see Christian morals and ethics reflected in legistlation, much like the country operated for the majority of its history, up until the 60s.

[Demscheat]

We need to be proud of our god.We should be able to have prayers in school and we need the 10 commandments back in public buldings.The liberals have tried to kill relgion we must tell them we believe in god and by doing that crime will go down and inmorality will go way down.We need to put god and this great country together with god's help we can accomplish anything.God bless America and I am proud to be american let's bring back relgion in america so we can always be a great nation.

[eddie willers]

Don't thank me you odious little toad!
I voted proudly for Bush and if I was a young man I would be at the recruitment center today.

[eddie willers]

I am Jewish, and I want my Christian America back like when I was a boy 60 years ago . . . I felt safe and in good hands . .

LOL....I probably agree with this post more than any other on this thread.
(Though I'm not Jewish ...and my childhood was in the '50s ....I know exactly what you mean)

[x]

Well, I can't speak for the whole country, but what the people I heard on talk radio objected to most strongly wasn't the condemnation of abortion or homosexuality or any other vice, but the idea that the act of terror was somehow the will of God.

While I understand that the Old Testament is full of such occurences, it does strike modern ears like mine as monstrous and barbaric that firemen, policemen, secretaries and salesmen should die for sins they did not themselves commit. If your child had been in the tower or in one of the planes would you still regard it as a just chastisement by God?

A God who takes innocent life to punish other people's sins can hardly complain about humans who also take innocent life. So I can understand if people feel angry and defiant at the reports of Falwell's remarks.

Also, people won't and shouldn't tolerate a politician using a national catastrophe to push their own agenda. The clergy may have the best interests of people or the will of God at heart, but they should not be exempted from having to wait until a decent interval has passed either. It can be hard sometimes to separate witness from egotism. Falwell may have had a legitimate point, but he should have waited until the bodies had been recovered and the shock had worn off. A wiser spiritual leader would have recognized that.

What was particularly shocking or off-putting to many people was that Falwell's God seemed to have more in common with that of militant Islamicists than with that of the Christians they know in their neighborhoods.

[eddie willers]

FYI...

I am not one of those pimple-face kids whose political philosophy seems to be:

"Libertarians think marijuana should be legal?
COOL...I'll be a Libertarian!"

that you have seen running rampant on FR as of late.

I know the difference between COULD and SHOULD...
and between LICENSE and LICENTIOUSNESS .

I had my own born again moment 11 years ago after reading Atlas Shrugged at age 38 and then witnessing the true, immoral faces of evil of Joe Biden, Ted Kennedy and other "compassionate" liberals as they attacked Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas so mercilessly.

The scales were dropped from my eyes.....
Not my morality.

I was raise a Southern Baptist and have great respect for Christian Philosophy.....
But I want my government based on the Constitution....not the Old Testament.

[Don Brush]

No one wants to force someone to pray. All I am saying is everyone, be he president or MacDonald's fry cook CAN pray anytime, anywhere, and there is no law against the president praying. If people don't want a president that prays then vote for one that doesn't. This country was founded by praying men, men that died to be able to pray.

[rb22982]

slavery is a great evil, I agree. However, it is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible and it was around so....

As to your attempt to make the God of the Old Testament out to be unrighteous? Why don't you take that up with Him...

I only stated what the Old Testament says. Does He (God) not order them to kill every man, woman child?

[Coyote]

I am not one of those pimple-face kids

A decent reply, and a point well taken.

JFYI, I'm somewhere torn between Ayn Rand's Objectivism (by way of personal experience with Nathanial Brandon), and C.S. Lewis (gentle, awesome, and rational Christian philosophy). I loved Objectivism, but can't find a way to resolve the spiritual emptiness (as the "spiritual Libertarianist", Brandon, pointed out to me). And I loved C.S. Lewis, but can't completely let myself abandon the secular age of reason. But those are just my two milestones, my Charybdis and Scylla. I've bounced off every philosophical wall from Bogota to Bombay, from Moscow to Berlin, and from Lhasa to Rome, to get myself here.

So I visit an improbable and schizophrenic position, to be sure. I live in and reason in a secular world, but my tears are with the persecuted prophets of the ages. But that's the difficulty of really trying to be aware about life. Impossible extremes become the challenge that tempers our souls. Nobody said it would be easy, did they.

BTW, what DID you think of Original Sin? As a secular piece, of course.

[EternalVigilance]

"Does He (God) not order them to kill every man, woman child?"

Indeed He does, as is His right, considering the fact that He is the Creator, and the Sovereign Lord of heaven and earth.

In fact, He is totally in charge of yours and my next breathe...and whether either of us shall arise tomorrow.

Good night.

[rb22982]

No arguements there

[TRY ONE]

"Our money has "In God we Trust". "It is sheer window-dressing cosmeticism of the most shallow nature."

That view speaks volumes as to who you are as a person, what you believe in, or better, what you don't believe. I would love have our Forefathers review the above and hear their response.

[TRY ONE]

"Our money has "In God we Trust". "It is sheer window-dressing cosmeticism of the most shallow nature."

That view speaks volumes as to who you are as a person, what you believe in, or better, what you don't believe. I would love have our Forefathers review the above and hear their response.

[f.Christian]

The wall to keep decency--civilization out and satan church--religion(liberals) protected--in!!

[1L]

In fact, the only mention I find is that of "Hands Off"!

The US Constitution? Can you be specific as to where it says "Hands Off"? You must have the version written by the ACLU and other anti-Americans. Sorry, pal.

You've been here long enough to know better.

And YOU obviously haven't been here long enough to take me on on this issue. There is no separation of church and state. That is a myth. What we do have, however, are two religion clauses: an establishment clause and a free exercise clause. Neither of those two have anything to say about "hands off" nor do they even imply that. (Don't make arrogant comments when your case is so arguably weak. That makes you look stupid. You won't win an argument here either with me or too many other people by saying there is a constitutionally established separation of church and state.)